A decade of disappointing signings

This topic contains 27 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by roygbiv roygbiv 5 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #1624992
    roygbiv
    roygbiv
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    Signing a new player is usually touch & go but I think it’s a damning verdict that in 10 years since last winning the Champions League we’ve made less than 5 signings that can be deemed very successful. There’s David De Gea, who overcame a torrid first couple of seasons to become the Worlds best keeper. Robin Van Persie was a huge success in his first and Fergie’s last season and didn’t really need to do much in his final 2 seasons to have his status questioned. Javier Hernandez was a brilliant signing and scored plenty of goals despite being a pretty limited player and ultimately fading away. Ibrahimovic was also a good signing in his first year and was instrumental in us winning 2 titles last season. The less said about him signing again the better, though.

    Am I leaving someone out? Matic has done a decent job this season, especially given the lack of support from his fellow midfielders and both Mata and Herrera have had decent spells but remain squad players. Smalling had 1 good season under LVG and Valencia could be described as a good servant but has flattered to deceive during most of his years at Old Trafford. Most of the other signings are either expensive flops are hopeful (moneyball-ish) punts that haven’t worked out.

    The likes of Martial, Pogba and Shaw may yet come good but their future seems to lie elsewhere, especially if Mourinho stays. They’re the ones he’s questioned/criticized the most and I think he’s right to do so but not in public and definitely not if he’s absolving himself of all blame. This style clearly isn’t working anymore and while that most definitely has a lot to do with the fact that footballers are becoming more pampered and egotistical, Jose simply can’t keep on doing the same thing and expecting the same results.

    The same goes for the club itself and those at the top will have to look carefully at why so many of the signings we’ve spent millions upon millions on have failed to produce. The club is clearly lacking an identity at the moment and will fail to attract players by only pointing to the past instead of the present and future. It’s not about buying the most expensive players, though, it’s about buying the RIGHT players who will play for the shirt instead of collapsing under the weight of it because that is what seems to have happened too many times. Good players become bad ones after joining United and regain their form after leaving. It’s not right and I think more care will have to be given to players mental strength instead of throwing money at players who are only in it for the money and bring absolutely nothing to the table apart from a huge wage-bill and failed promise.

    #1625022
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    For me a success is a player who becomes a key player in a generation of a team. That’s to say spends his top flight career with us like Rio or Evra. Alternatively one who has an impact on the team beyond his personal contribution in a season eg Cantona. RvP and Ibra were of use for only one season, and neither helped develop the team. I’d argue their contribution was not great. A United striker is always going to score goals.

    For me DDG is the only signing that can be considered a success the past decade. And if we look to homegrown players, you have to go back almost 20 years to the emergence of Scholes to find a player who was more than a second stringer. (you have to exclude Rashford since jury still out). And look at all the players we were seriously chasing but lost out on because we would not pay the fee.

    #1625025
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Wonderfuel Gas
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    I think this is a brilliant post and in an attempt to pick it apart I went through transfer for each season. Terrifying…you could do a Dickensian ghost of transfer windows past sketch.

    You can see us shopping at Poundland after the Glazers came in replacing probes with paupers and the chaotic pinball wizard approach under Moyes. Then you’ve got little Ed adopting a kid in a sweet shop Galactico approach and us becoming increasingly enthralled to the super agents. They’re playing us like a puppet on a string.

    I wonder who the ghost of transfer windows yet to come is?

    #1625036

    Time to rate every transfer then (taking into account the profit or loss made, impact, number and quality of performances). Also judging the newer players on how I rate them so far:

    Excellent – De Gea

    Good – Valencia, Hernandez, Young, RVP, Bailly, Ibrahimovic

    Decent – Berbatov, Owen, Smalling, Lindegaard, Jones, Mata, Shaw, Herrera, Martial, Romero, Pogba, Lukaku, Matic

    Bad – Tosic, De Laet, Diouf, Obertan, Bebe, Kagawa, Zaha, Powell, Henriquez, Buttner, Fellaini, Di Maria, Rojo, Blind, Falcao, Schneiderlain, Depay, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Mhkitaryan, Lindelof, Sanchez

    That’s a horrific record looking at it. It seems most of the issues stem from the Moyes and Van Gaal eras where nothing really fruitful came out of spending some 400m on players – shocking transfer dealings! Mourinho has improved on that with his players actually making a difference for the most part (still expect Sanchez to come good eventually and for Lindelof to improve) however I think United really do need to sort out their scouting and transfer policies and expertise.

    #1625118
    roygbiv
    roygbiv
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    @mac, that was actually my initial thought. That De Gea was our only real success in the transfer market during this period but I decided to throw the others in despite them only being short term signings. We knew they were but at least they delivered in that short time. As for Chicharito, he’s our only “out of the blue signing” that actually worked.

    DDG is the only great long-term signing we’ve made in over a decade, possibly harking back to Evra and Vidic but the sheer thought of it made me so depressed that I threw the others in for good measure!

    #1625120
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    • :

    Here’s a list of all signings since the CL 2008 win ……..

    Victor Lindelöf
    Romelu Lukaku
    Nemanja Matic
    Alexis Sánchez
    Eric Bailly
    Zlatan Ibrahimovic
    Henrikh Mkhitaryan
    Paul Pogba
    Memphis Depay
    Matteo Darmian
    Morgan Schneiderlin
    Bastian Schweinsteige
    Sergio Romero
    Anthony Martial
    Regan Poole
    Vanja Milinkovic
    Ander Herrera
    Luke Shaw
    Marcos Rojo
    Ángel Di María
    Daley Blind
    Victor Valdez
    Sadiq El Fitouri
    Nick Powell
    Shinji Kagawa
    Sean Goss
    Robin Van Persie
    Angelo Henrique
    Alexander Büttner
    Wilfred Zaha
    Phil Jones
    David De Gea
    Ashley Young
    Chris Smalling
    Javier Hernandez
    Marnick Vermijl
    Bebe
    Anders Lindegaard
    Antonio Valencia
    Michael Owen
    Gabriel Obertan
    Mame Biram Diouf
    Paul Pogba
    Demitar Berbatov
    Zoran Tosic
    Adem Ljajic
    Ritchie De Laet

    #1625121
    redblood
    redblood
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    • :

    I kind of see things slightly different myself.Why? Because if you take into account that you cant have 11 worldies,you need players to come in and give their contribution.i.e.Solksjaer,Hernandez,Park,JOS,etc.And I measure that contribution in terms of trophies,so for example when/if we win a major trophy then everybody has contributed to that achievement! Take the CL triumph of 2008 for example,and players like Anderson who were considered flops by many, contributed to us landing the trophy.

    #1625122
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    • :

    I’d love to compile a list of all homegrown players who have had a debut or maybe 5 games.

    @roygbiv – Fair enough, but you’re being generous.

    @Sympathy – You are being kind also. Bailly has been injured so hardly good. Ibra RvP were one season players. Valencia Young were mediocre wingers who only recently have become decent wing backs. Hernandez can’t be that good if we sell him for relative peanuts.

    #1625144
    roygbiv
    roygbiv
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    I’m not talking about signing worldies but players who make the team/squad better. There’s no point signing players like Di Maria, Sanchez and Pogba, who are supposed to be world class, if they’re only here for the paycheck. We’re lacking a clear identity and vision, meaning that a scattergun approach has been adopted since the Glazers took over and there’s no one to say “this is where we are going and this is how we’re going to get there”

    #1625151

    @macguffin – Bailly I think was a good signing because, despite the injuries so far, we have gotten a very good centre back who will be part of a CB pairing if he stays fit. Ibrahimovic and RVP were indeed one-season wonders but one was free and nabbed us 28 goals whilst the other won us a title almost single-handedly, so I’d say they were both pretty good signings. As for Valencia and Young, whilst not top class playersthemselves, we did get 7+ years out of them for relatively cheap prices in the long run; they’ve both done a relatively good job down the years (Valencia used to be excellent when played in his natural position and Young too gave us a lot of good performances down the years) so, although the players themselves aren’t excellent, their transfers turned out to be successful in my eyes.

    Cheers

    #1625171
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    @Sympathy – There are stars (needs no explanation) and players who, depending on what was expected of them, can be considered successes. I’d say players like JOS or Fortune were successes. They were not expected to be more than second stringers and did the job to acceptable standard. We must therefore consider the expectations, and that relates to their fee and role.

    That said, the topic is framed in terms of “disappointments”. Young was signed as Giggs successor, Valencia as Ronaldos. Yes its a high bar but if we look at the wingers United have had over the years, they are amongst the worst. Even as full backs, Valencia is no Neville, Young is no Evra. That they have lasted so long is down to the fact there’s been so many players even worse than them.

    As for Bailly, you are assuming he becomes a success. You talk of “will be” and “if”. You cannot give a rating on the basis of what you hope will happen in the future.

    RvP was not signed on the basis of 1 season. It was expected he give us 3-4 seasons. That he didn’t was in part a cause of our decline. As for Ibra, any striker is going to score goals at United, especially when 80% of opponents are weak. Ibra hardly did a RvP for us, he’s a reason we ended up 5th.

    And if a worker performs acceptable for half a day then is sick the other half do you give him a good rating based on half a day. I don’t. I’m disappointed.

    You have to reconsider your evaluations in the light of being pleased or disappointed with their contribution throughout their time, taking into account what was expected of them. I expected more from all the above players.

    #1625216

    hookeddevil
    Participant
    • :

    That’s some list of signings! I think the 2 goalies De Gea and Romero have been the best signings in the list, arguably the best #1 and reserve combo in the world.

    #1625217

    @macguffin – I guess we don’t agree on this mate. Personally I think that 16m or so (even if back in the day) for 7 years of quite consistent performances is a good deal, irrespective of who they were meant to replace. By the same reasoning, absolutely anyone who came after Ronaldo and Giggs would be deemed a failure even if they were actually excellent signings because to be replacements for Giggs and Ronaldo is virtually impossible. If Real Madrid sign Griezmann as a replacement for Ronaldo and he nabs 200 goals for them over 6 or so years, does that make him a bad signing because he couldn’t match Ronaldo’s record? I don’t think so, and neither do I think Valencia and Young’s transfers should be looked at by how they compare to Ronaldo and Giggs respectively. The players in themselves couldn’t replace Giggs and Ronaldo, there is no doubting that, but that doesn’t mean they were bad signings; if that were the case then Hernandez is a bad signing too because he couldn’t match up to Tevez’s goals.

    As for Bailly, I said in my original comment that I’m taking the transfers on what I currently believe; and I do believe that Bailly was a good signing despite the injuries. I agree that there are many ifs and buts involved and would gladly re-evaluate in a year or two however, as of right now, I think having Bailly in the squad for 30m or so was a good transfer.

    RVP was signed to win us the league, and he did that – he played a major part in pushing us forward and getting us a title. For 24m he was worth that and gave the performances required. If we didn’t sign him we wouldn’t have won the league – so is 24m worth a title? I say it is.

    Ibrahimovic again, cost us nothing and came in and scored 28 goals in a poor attacking side; even Lukaku who is 24 and cost us 75m hasn’t reached that amount in, most likely, more games played. I never expected more than one season from him and was hoping for him to nab 10 to 15 goals max however in the end he got double that and helped us to win 3 trophies (2 of which were thanks to his goals). He was well worth the wages we paid in that year (re-signing I didn’t agree with though).

    On you worker analogy; if a worker comes in for half day and takes sick the rest of the day but I only paid him for the half that he worked; then yes he was worth the money spent – that how transfers are debated.

    #1625265
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    @Sympathy –

    YOUNG – was signed to be Giggs successor. He failed to dislodge even a 39 year old Giggs and was behind Nani in the pecking order. As defender he cannot be compared to Irwin, Evra even Heinze, Silvestre.

    VALENCIA – I agree nobody can be expected to compare with Giggs Ronaldo. Thats why I said other players over the years. As winger he wasn’t better than Becham, Ole, Kanchelskis. As a defender he’s not comparable to Neville, Parker.

    Both Young and Valencia are decent at best. Its no coincidence that when they became regulars United were at their worst. As for how long they’ve been here, if thats a measure Anderson would get high ratings.

    RVP – Yes he had one great season but I dont think thats enough. By that argument Januzaj was a great player for us. I grant you he cannot be considered as a poor signing but I wouldn’t say good.

    IBRA – Its hard to talk about a 1 year stopgap player. But he was nothing special. You rate him because he was free. Its like free flat beer, you can always say its value for money.

    BAILLEY – I dont think you can rate players until there’s been time. Its like giving match ratings after 10 minutes based on what you hope will happen in the remaining 80. And doing it for a player who was being treated for 6 out of those 10 minutes !

    We will have to agree to disagree but I think your rating criteria is low and by your standards many signings would be deemed good.

    #1625291
    roygbiv
    roygbiv
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    I don’t necessarily agree with the thought longevity is a must when assessing signings. It’s preferable, no doubt, but there will always be players who are brought in to have a short-term impact and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. We can’t of course have a whole team of players who are 28+ but at the same time we can’t have team full of players younger than 23. It should be a gradual cycle.

    Sometimes a player is needed to make a short-term impact or to bring experience/leadership/a winning mentality to a squad of younger players. I think we’re seriously lacking a leader at the moment and wouldn’t mind us signing ONE experienced center back this summer for instance. I’m not talking about some 35 year old but someone who might just give us 2-4 years at the top but ensures that the others learn from him as well as gaining valuable experience.

    #1625297
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    @roygbiv – If a team needs to sign a older player its because of failure in previous signings. The ideal is to get the balance such that the young player matures and pushes the older player out to grass. In the past we had no problem, because we had great players who stayed for as long as they were needed.

    Our problem came when our last great players aged and there were no existing playersin their prime to take their places.

    I think its a myth to believe an older signing can bring leadership, experience, mentality to a team. The older player must first demonstrate he is good enough to lead by example. If its a Cantona then younger players look up to him because of what they see him doing on the pitch. Its not so easy to look up to a Falcao or Sanchez if they are not delivering.

    And leadership, mentality often means knowledge and love of the club. Thats hard for a new signing. And if the player is talking about what he did elsewhere (like LvG, JM) its not good. Likewise if he is focused on his personal achievements more than his club eg Ibra.

    I dont think you can buy leadership. United used to have a policy of no major signing over the age of 25. I support that policy.

    My fear at present is JM will sign too many older players (eg Matic, Sanchez) in an effort to win a title then we will be in trouble as they all age just like we were when Giggs Vidic etc. left.

    #1625298

    @macguffin – The longevity and value are parts of the same discussion; Ibrahimovic was free which is a big plus but the ultimate thought of why he was a good signing is not simply because he was free, but because he got us 28 goals and helped us win 3 trophies and cost us nothing in the process. If he was free and scored no goals and played like rubbish it wouldn’t make him a good signing just coz he’s “a free flat beer” – but getting a relatively decent beer for free is always a plus.

    With Young and Valencia, again it’s not simply about the longevity or quality but the total package; for around 16m each we got two players who gave us 7 years of service and, up to this day, remain relatively first team players (even if our overall squad quality is not the best). Paying 2m a year for decent back-up players would be a decent signing; getting two players who have been mostly first team players for a while is what I’d call a good signing. Yes, they aren’t the highest quality, but when you see us having Young as a 16m purchase who is our first choice left back at 31 and 7 years down the line, and then look at Shaw at 30m and can’t even dislodge him, you see the stark difference between a good and bad signing right there.

    On Bailly I’ll withdraw on discussing the transfer then if one cannot take any sort of presumptions into account; personally I think that, long-term, he will turn out to be a good transfer for us. Currently, the jury is still out I concede that.

    #1625299
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    @roygbiv – As for short term impact player, that’s another myth concocted to explain older signings who it is hoped still have it in them for another couple of seasons.

    It is hoped that every major signing is an impact player ie makes a difference. If not what are we paying the money for. The difference is, younger players can be expected to improve whereas older players are expected to deteriorate. I prefer players on the way up not those over the hill and on the way down.

    #1625301
    redblood
    redblood
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    • :

    Another problem is that we have become like Arsenal,in terms of keeping certain players for far too long @ the club.i.e. Carrick,Valencia,Young,Jones,Smalling,Mata,etc.Players who should have been sold/let go long time before they became useless/too old.Yes anybody makes mistake regarding signings,but why do we need to keep players like Valencia,Young,Carrick,Jones,this long? How long has Blind been stealing his living from United?

    #1625307
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
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    @Sympathy – Neither of us know the cost of Ibra. We know he was on top wage and I’d find it hard to believe there was not a signing on fee and agent fee, like there was with Sanchez.

    The key point is, you can only have a limited amount of players. So if you have a squad full of decent not good signings people are disappointed because the team needs great players. Our problem in recent years and even now, is its much of a muchness. Replace any player with another and its pretty much the same. Shaw, Young, Darmian, Rojo, Blind.

    As for price, longevity etc. Yes I’m sure as far as the Glazers and accountants are concerned its a great signing. Does a reasonable job for reasonable total cost over career. I’m convinced thats part of the reason Young, Valencia, Smalling, Jones etc. have been at the club so long. Its good for the bottom line.

    But as the club focus shifted to the bottom line, thats when our footballing performance started to decline. We keep these mediocre players longer than we should and end up with a backline of Young Valencia Jones Smalling as successors to Neville Vidic Rio Evra. Its no bloody wonder that our football has suffered the past 5 years.

    You are calling signings good who have been here when we are playing poorly. Its no coincidence that our football is poor.

    And following on from roygbiv leadership point, where’s the experience and leadership from Young, Valencia, Ibra etc. Their time at the club is the first time in 2 decades people have moaned about lack of passion, commitment etc.

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