November 8, 2017 at 5:56 pm #1555452
@happyhurling. Let’s hope we kick on from here mate. I have every confidence in this team as long as Pogba is on the pitch. I am however, certain that even at full strength we can’t compete for the Champions League unless Mourinho pulls an absolute masterclass tactically – unfortunately the fans and press won’t give him credit if he does it as he has always done so he’s in a difficult spot – by extension, so are we.
@wonderfuel gas. I am sure the club wants to get rid of Shaw because he’s a lazy, cry-baby bum but I was referring to the pundits and fans that support him. They support him and vilify Mourinho because he’s a young English lad, end of story. It’s funny that all his supporters ignore the fact that LvG and Pochettino have also felt the need to publicly state his lack of application.November 8, 2017 at 6:22 pm #1555465
@manthistle. I don’t really care about individual players looking good or bad under a certain manager. Main thing is how the team functions as a unit. LvG implemented his philosophy on the team and we had all the possession in the world, basically boring our opponents into submission and that meant our defence was hardly ever tested when Blind was playing centrally in defence. In the end LvG got the sack because after he had fully implemented his philosophy it was clear we couldn’t create enough chances. Mourinho does not see Blind as fit for purpose in the central defensive areas or the fullback areas and he is correct in my view, he’s not a specialist in any of these positions. I think he is best as a backup midfielder because of his good distribution.
At the end of the day I think it is fair to now say that Mourinho has had enough time to implement his philosophy and as boring as might be to you, we create a lot more chances and we function far better as a unit than we did under LvG. In one word, we are more effective. Whether this will be enough for Mourinho to satisfy fans and the board so as to allow him to buy better players at the end of the season, only time will tell.
Either way, honeymoon period is over for Mourinho and I will now start judging him much more critically. I did the same with LvG around the December period of his second season as well.
I agree with most of your player assertions except the following:
– Valdez: This was a bad signing because he showed insubordination to the manager. When a player and a manager clash I always take the manager’s side. Players must know they are junior to the manager, good thing De Gea stayed so no harm done.
– Di Maria: Bad signing. Highly unprofessional and didn’t want to come in the first place as you have stated. It is the manager’s job to make sure he recruits a team that wants to play for him.
– Falcao: He was rubbish and never got to grips with Premier League football. Shocking signing.
– Shaw: Shocking signing but it was difficult to judge beforehand. If only Chelsea had taken him instead but we paid higher wages and were more desperate to sign that scoundrel charlatan.
– Schneiderlin: At first I thought he was the real deal but he doesn’t have that extra pizazz needed in midfield, still rubbish now at Everton. It seems the Southampton form was the anomaly. Bad signing.
– Mkhitaryan: He has proven he is able to cope with the pace of the Premier League with his impressive form on the back end of last season and the beginning of this season when he was assisting and breaking the lines at ease. Consistency is a big worry though. Jury is out for me.
– Lukaku: I understand he has limitations but you appear to sweep him aside in your assertion. This is a top class proven goalscorer in his first goal drought at a big club (Rooney and Diego Costa have had longer droughts). You wouldn’t have dared to dismiss him like that in September.November 8, 2017 at 7:06 pm #1555484
Interesting story about Schneiderlin…after less than a week of training there were a lot of our players questioning why the hell we’d signed him and let Fletcher leave as it was clear as day to them that the Scotchman was a far superior player. Nice fella by all accounts but not for a minute at our level.
One day the stories about Luke Shaw will come out too.November 8, 2017 at 7:34 pm #1555496
I’m not convinced José will win the main trophies with us. I don’t think he can get enough players through the door. There is soooo much shite it’s unbelievable.
What doesn’t help is him being a fanny and not going for it against the big teams. I would rather win one and lose two against the big teams than draw two and lose one.
He wanted 4 and got 3 players. Ed was probably haggling over 50p and missed out on the fourth whilst others spend £200m on one player.
We need top notch players, how many have we purchased?November 8, 2017 at 7:49 pm #1555500
Thanks for the response. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion when it comes to football, of course, but there are a few of your observations where I see things differently.
“I would argue that Jose knows all to well how shite Darmian is and has been yet still prefers him over a player like Shaw who based on past viewing appeared to be going in the right direction under LvG prior to his horrific injury“.
As I’ve argued elsewhere, every time a player steps onto the pitch he provides decisionmakers and opnionators such as ourselves with pieces of information. Those pieces provide a foundation on which to reach conclusions. In the years Shaw’s been with the club, I personally haven’t seen him provide pieces of information to reach a conclusion that he’s markedly better than for example Darmian; certainly not on a consitent level.
“I would say last season Herrera looked immensely better under Mourinho but for some reason this season has looked poor“.
There are a few things at play here:
1) If Herrara was better last season than he is now, is that the same as Herrera being good enough? Not necessarily, in my book.
2) If he’s worse now than he was last season, is it then JM who is at fault or is Herrera either experiencing a dip in form or a return to his standard performance level? My own thinking is that if JM was, as a manager, able to get Herrera to play at a certain level last season, it probably isn’t JM who has lost ability to man manage, but rather Herrera who’s simply not performing as he should.
3) I’m not entirely sure I agree that Herrera was markedly better last season. He performed decently and had Pogba at his side all season to make him appear better than he was. When sorrounded by players of sub-Pogba quality, it shows.
4) Matic is an ample yardstick by which to judge Herrera as a midfielder. Matic has come in a from the go put together a string of performances at a level which I can’t recall I’ve ever seen Herrera perform at in all the seasons he’s been at United. For me, Matic’s arrival has in that way helped shine a revealing light on the performance levels of Herrera.
“Rashford and Martial looked better under LvG then they do under Mourinho“.
Both of these players had strong break-through seasons and suffered a bit from second season-syndrome. I’d say that this season Martial has shown performance levels comparable to that of his first season, perhaps even better.
“Fellaini looks better under Mourinho“.
I agree. But, and I might be misreading what you say, I don’t see how that supports your initial claim that a larger part of the blame should befall Mourinho?
“as did Blind with his partnership with Smalling“.
I might be losing track of what was originally being discussed. What I commented on was a remark of yours along the lines that JM should be blamed more and the players less. To that end, a discussion of where to lay blame/find explanations of our current inability to compete: Primarily with the manager or primarily with the players.
I believe the explanation primarily lies with the players, not the manager. We suffer players that aren’t good enough for two reasons:
1) Lack of proper team maintenance and lack of cynisism starting in the winter of SAF’s tenure.
2) Bad investmests during LVG.
Mourinho has, in my opinion, increased the level of quality of our signings (Pogba, Bailly, Zlatan, Lukaku and Matic). But more importantly, he’s displayed a much clearer transfer strategy in terms of buying what the club actually needs. Very much unlike signings made under LvG.
However, Mourinho is still plagued by the aforementioned tendencies and is struggling with a slew of deadwood. Something that becomes clear to me when I look at our teams comparatively with the United Standard in mind.
We’ve had two teams under SAF that for a number of years played to the United Standard of challenging consistently in PL and CL. The mid to late 90’s team and the mid to late 00’s team. If I look at how the players on these two teams compare to our current players, it speaks volumes to me – especially if you were to leave out players signed by Mourinho!
GK: (PS1) vs. (VdZ) vs. (DDG)
LB: (Irwin) vs. (Silvestre/Evra) vs (Shaw/Blind/Darmian)
CB: (Stam/Johnsen) vs. (Ferdinand/Vidic) vs. (Bailly/Rojo/Jones/Smalling)
RB: (Nevilles/Brown) vs. (Valencia/Darmian)
Because of varying formations, I’ll summize it as midfield and forward line.
Midfield: (Giggs-25/Beckham/Keane/Scholes-24) vs. (Scholes-33)/Carrick-27/Hargreaves/Giggs-34/Fletcher) vs. (Young/Fellaini/Herrera/Miki/Carrick-36/Pogba/Matic)
Forward line: (Cole/Yorke/Solskjaer/Sheringham/Cantona) vs. (Rooney-22/Ronaldo/Nistelrooy/Saha) vs. (Mata/Martial/Lingaard/Rashford/Lukaku)
Now, when I look at these three “different” teams and ask myself the question: “why aren’t we performing to the United Standard”, it seems very clear to me that the answer has everything to do with the quality of our players and very little to do with the quality of our manager.November 8, 2017 at 9:56 pm #1555539
I’m doing a happy and posting after a few beers. Most of the players are weak minded. Sometimes you have to grind things out and these fuckers struggle to do that.
Mourinho needs to find the right formula…if you’re parking the bus, you have to have the right players to take chances when they come. We don’t have a Lampard or Drogba so try something slightly different.
We need players who have the desire to fight for the result. If these lot cannot do it get rid.November 8, 2017 at 10:11 pm #1555540
As you can see I’m a bit peed off Mourinho hasn’t found that winning formula with the squad at his disposal. Injuries are a part of the game and the back up is not good enough. He should have done more during the transfer windows but the current players also have to take some of the blame.November 9, 2017 at 6:14 am #1555563
@nil – Excellent post and points. What for me is the most obvious is the contrast (drop) in player quality. Bruce/Pallister, Stamm/Johnsen, Rio/Vidic, Bailly/Smalling. And if we look at the second stringers its the same pattern. A Nicky Butt or Fletcher or Herrera.
Even in areas where we are stronger, the players are new and as yet mostly unproven over long time. Is Lukaku a RvN or young Rooney. Are Pogba Matic a Keane Scholes. Perhaps they may be but they are certainly not at the moment.
And lets consider that it takes time for pairings to develop. The telepathy between players that was the hallmark of Fergie’s teams.
And as Scholesy says …. the leadership, the passion & fight.November 9, 2017 at 9:53 am #1555654
Anybody got the nerves to read these essays from nil?!.HeheNovember 9, 2017 at 10:06 am #1555668
I prefer an essay to a tweet. There’s more meat on the bone as food for thought.
But I can understand it being problematic for those who struggle to follow anything more than 180 characters.November 9, 2017 at 10:17 am #1555685
Lol Mac,those who write essays should be banned,hehe.November 9, 2017 at 10:26 am #1555691
Mac-How about you and this poster nil write a book,and then as friendly gesture for us United fans on here you send a copy-free of charge?.LolNovember 9, 2017 at 10:57 am #1555708
What for, you lazy cunts wouldn’t get past the second sentence. How about we do a join-the-dots picture book for you. But do they allow you to have pencils where you are ?November 9, 2017 at 12:33 pm #1555775
MacGuffin – I think on paper Di Maria was a great signing. He was a galactico type of signing and was at the peak of his game. Shaw was still young so he wasn’t as guaranteed to be a success.November 9, 2017 at 12:45 pm #1555777
Yes I see where you’re coming from to an extent, but shouldn’t a manager know more than you and me about players. He can talk to the players, judge how interested he is, his character, attitude etc. He has scouts to watch them in training etc.
And I think you should qualify your assessment with hindsight ie it seemed a good signing (good player good price good fit for our needs) but turned out to be a crap buy.
Just strikes me a strange saying a great pint but tastes like piss.November 9, 2017 at 1:02 pm #1555780
Mac-There are only 24 hrs in the day pal,us docs have so much new stuff to read,do not have time to read all these essays written by posters like nil and yourself,hehehe.Lazy cunts eh,lol?.Lazy cunts are those who have got the time to write essays,haha.November 9, 2017 at 1:04 pm #1555783
Carrick-ADM just did not want to come to England mate,simple as that!.He said it as much,did he not?.But then again,why sign a player who did not want to come in the 1st place?!November 9, 2017 at 1:27 pm #1555793
@redblood – The reason I write essays is to explain my thinking, how I arrive my opinion. Often it’s longer than I want because posters fire off dozens of questions or false statements. An answer takes longer than a question.
Personally when I encounter a long post, I scan read to determine if its something that interests me, something I can respond to. Then I read the sections that interest me, and often work backwards to read it in context. I would have thought a doctor knew how to speed read and pick out the keypoints.
For me the poster who simply says .. we were shit or we were great … isn’t helping me come closer to the (probable) truth if he doesn’t explain it. You can say it’s his opinion but an opinion without basis or explanation as interesting to me as telling me you like to eat waffles.
Yes I accept that for some time is limited but does the forum have that many new posts. And if time is so short, then perhaps a discussion forum is not the place to be.November 9, 2017 at 2:56 pm #1555842
Mac-Only this nil poster who posts once in a blue moon writes essays too long to read,hehe.November 9, 2017 at 3:10 pm #1555862
redblood – You are becoming quite an expert of slithering away from the argument/issue like our happy mate.hehehehehehehehe
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