October 12, 2015 at 3:33 pm #665254
Football has grown enormously since its conception because lots of people CHOOSE to pay money to see it. Therefore, the football industry is led in the direction that caters to the maximum number of fans. If numbers start falling, the game will change to accomodate it.
I believe this is an example of democracy at work. Some argue that fans abroad should not have the same say as as the local fan who purchases a season ticket. My question to those who do is, why do you believe that they actually do anyway? A fan who spends 2k a year following their team is worth to the PL and their club 20 times what a fan in the states paying 100 quid a year in subscriptions is. What I mean is that it would take 20 american fans to cancel their subscription to have an equal negative effect on the PL as 1 season ticket holder not renewing their ticket. Local fans have more say if they spend more, but do not own the game!
You can post about how you “feel” the game is not what you think it should be or not what it used to be, but there is absolutely no reason why the PL should be prioritising those two criteria! The Premier leagues aim is to be the PREMIER league and attract as many fans as possible. If they have to ignore your particular feelings and whims to do this, too bad! If you cant handle that totally reasonable and logical claim, then I have to question how suited you are in living in a world in which there are other people apart from you!
The clubs at the top of the PL are internationally supported and it is unreasonable to expect the same individual relationship with man utd as you would Yeovil! What is changing the game from what it was is evident on the forum index. Just look at the differences in numbers posting on PL teams to those in championship and lower. The state of the modern game is the direct result of the choices of the vast majority and to claim something is wrong with that is absurd.
We have the freedom to choose our league and club, and the ignorance to cry foul over the results of our collective choices? That is what I am hearing.
If you believ fans have no say what so ever, I couldnt disagree with you more. What you are failing to understand is that the sheer number of fans of the PL means that each individual voice is minimised and that the only possible way the PL can direct itself is by doing what increases fan base and satisfies the majority. If you are not in the majority, that loves the game for what it is and not what it used to be, I am sorry for you, but I applaud the PL for ignoring you!
If you dont like what you are constantly paying for, more fool you!October 12, 2015 at 4:39 pm #665323
Well that’s 25mims of my life I’m never gonna get back. What a load of self-righteous rubbish. You do like to force your opinions on other people don’t you? I think you just like the sound of your own voice. You and Nil should get a forum to yourselves and save the rest of us from your unsubstantiated ranting.October 12, 2015 at 5:10 pm #665329
25 minutes, Tim! Were the words too long for you? If you don’t want to read it, don’t read it…but why do you have throw abuse around like confetti? Where do you get off doing that?October 12, 2015 at 6:29 pm #665389
timvick, stay classy fella:-) This is a forum for opinions and debate, excuse me for using it to do just that. It apparently took me less time to write it that it did for you to read it. My morning turds have more brain cells than you! Hows that for self righteous! p.s, if it truly is rubbish how come you can not refute it?October 12, 2015 at 7:16 pm #665407
Timvick, just for fun and because I am bored, I would like to show you how to disect and refute a post rationally, so that you can have a go yourself. I will use your post above for this purpose.
1) You claim I like to force my opinions on other people. Well, I dont know how you can debate without stating your opinion and outlining the reasons that compel you to hold that opinion. I wish not to force anything on anyone and you CHOSE to read my post.
2) You believe I like to hear the sound of my own voice. If I wanted to hear my own voice I would be sitting here talking to myself and not writing my opinions, I hope you can understand that when you write you are not listening to the SOUND of your own voice.
3) You claim my post is a rant and unsubstantiated. I am confident that I articulated my view well and clearly, giving reasons that you have not refuted. You are the only one on this page that has given an opinion without backing it up with an argument!
I have without doubt refuted your reply and clearly shown that it is lacking in both intelligence and respect for rational debate.October 12, 2015 at 10:06 pm #665551
The fact that timvick even had the curiousity and attention span to read this post leads me to believe that most regular posters have too.
I have no evidence yet that I am misguided in my conclusions, although I would be delighted if some were to present itself on this thread:-).
I will understand if some are “sickened” by my apathetic apologetics on behalf of a cold, heart less machine, namely the Premier league, but at least I am recognising it for what it is.
What compels me to do so, however, is the factually founded understanding that left to its own devices, the PL grew into the greatest league in the world, and I believe that no human being is intelligent enough to regulate and force it into something better without actually failing and making it worse.
p.s, if any one wants my evidence for believing that last claim, ask and I shall provide, but said enough, again, for now.October 12, 2015 at 10:24 pm #665569
Tim vick, goading posters as always – classy guy – what was it, a ‘serious’ debate you were after?!October 12, 2015 at 10:26 pm #665572
Do you have any views of your own Tim Vick?October 13, 2015 at 9:12 am #665800
Apologies for not responding sooner but I obviously don’t have as much time to dedicate to baseless argument as you do (your posting frequency is impressive / disturbing / sad). It took me 25mins to read your post as I had to take regular breaks as the words hurt my eyes. However, I have a couple of points in response to your own-
1) Opinion ceases to become opinion when you conclude sentences with phrases such as “I have without doubt refuted your reply”.
2) Enjoying the sound of your own voice is an expression and can apply to the written word. Do you take everything so literally? If I said a drunken monkey could articulate better than you it would be just to emphasise a point.
3) A self righteous person would be confident that they had articulated their view well because that’s what self righteous people do.
Anyway, thanks for enlightening us all with your words of wisdom. The 4 people that managed to read it till the end will be in awe of superior intellect and insightful views. You could start a cult. You and nil could change the world.October 13, 2015 at 9:18 am #665812
Hey sensibleS7, sometimes I like to listen to sports radio shows and I’m so easily influenced that I form opinions and views based on what the latest dimwitted footballer is saying. I then get drunk, listen to another dim witted footballer on TV and take the polar opposite view.October 13, 2015 at 9:40 am #665827
lol timvick it is a fact that the last post I referred to as void of any intelligence or respect for rational debate.
p.s, timvick, I, unlike you, have never referred to the “deluded masses” like you have previously, so you might want to understand what self righteous actually means! Provide some logical arguments as to why my initial post is misguided and I will be eternally grateful, if you cant do that, just shut it:-)October 13, 2015 at 9:59 am #665848
P.P.S timvick, @ your post 9:12am
1) the opinion I claim as fact is that your first reply is without intelligence or respect for rational debate, I stand by that 100%.
2) You could claim the same about any poster on here, but you never would of yourself, eh?
3) A self righteous person would believe they are right regardless of the arguments of others or without feeling the need to argue their own position. That is what you have done! I am open to any arguments you may have that my initial post was misguided, but as of yet you havent had the decency to provide any. It is not self righteous to claim I had articulated my arguments well, I am allowed to have that subjective opinion, and the benefit of giving reasons for my opinion is that if someone thinks I am wrong, they can show me why. Unlike you, my mind is not closed, have an argument for once why dont you?October 13, 2015 at 10:42 am #665896
Alright shansky me ol mucker. I see you’re taking stalking to new levels pal. My Teamtalk experience wouldn’t be complete without you commenting 20 times on my every post. You and this luckydestiny guy should get on like a house on fire (please note luckydestiny that I’m not impling that you and shanks are made of bricks and have been set alight, it is simply an expression).October 13, 2015 at 10:50 am #665911
lol timvick, you dont wish to engage in a rational debate for the same reason I dont put on a pair of gloves and get in the boxing ring, lack of the attributes needed to succeed:-)October 13, 2015 at 10:52 am #665917
Luckydestiny, I think it’s appropriate that the madman shanks has intervened on our discussion as he is a perfect example of what you don’t want to become on this site. He is the embodiment of the deluded masses that I refer to. He was opinionated and sure of himself like you but after years of trying to take up every argument from his demented perspective, he became bitter and twisted. He eventually morphed into a Gollum from lord of the rings like character. Cursed to stalk these boards in search of his precious (a friend). If you’re not careful, it could be you.October 13, 2015 at 10:56 am #665923
Lol timvick, like I said, you call me self righteous but never look at yourself!!! At least I provide reasons for my opinions!!October 13, 2015 at 11:20 am #665974
Luckydestiny, I don’t take myself seriously enough for any self reflection. I imagine if I did though I would find myself perfect in every way.October 13, 2015 at 12:43 pm #666106
Lucky, I think I need to clarify my position to you which I think you have misunderstood. That’s why threads sometimes aren’t always the best platform to thrash out a complex debate. Anyway, I will endeavour to try.
This whole issue for me typifies the ugly side of capitalism. Let me use an analogy. Every clothes shop you walk into now has a huge selection of nice clothes for you to purchase and hence it enables us to look and make the best of our selves, arguably giving us a pleasure. However, an awful lot of these clothes have been manufactured in the squalors of the god awful sweat shops throughout the world where people basically have to endure slavery to enable us to have pleasurable goods to buy. Now, I admit, I buy such clothes, I’m sure many people do. And it certainly makes me a hypocrite that I enjoy these clothes at the cost of somebody else. But I think we should spare these people more thought & action than we do.
Just because more people want these clothes that don’t in the whole clothes market, it doesn’t make this suffering right.
Now the world isn’t perfect and can’t be built, in my opinion, on idealism. We have to manage as best we can, but we should always endeavour to make things as fair as possible. I for example would pay £5 more for a jumper if it drastically improved the conditions of such people. It is a compromise we should endeavour to make. Now whilst the conditions suffered in these sweat shops is of a different order to the local fan suffering from being priced out his game, the principle is the same, and I am uncomfortable that someone’s pleasure comes at the price of someone else’s suffering.
I completely agree with and understand your logical business argument that football was always going to end up like this. I am just arguing from a more moral position.
I therefore refute your claim I am acting selfishly. The people’s game isn’t the people’s game if one people’s pleasure comes at the price of someone else.
I accept the situation as it is, but I am just arguing that we can compromise slightly in order that everybody enjoys the game more, and I think we can find ways to do that will both keep global & local fan happy. Quotas are an idea, maybe they are the answer maybe they are not. But we should keep exploring ways to find common ground and that is what debate should ultimately lead to – common ground & compromise.
There are no easy answers, but anyway, I leave you with these thoughts.October 13, 2015 at 6:35 pm #666418
Listen to the encyclopedia of football! No threads started, no engage in debate, just coattail onto other people’s comments and be the serial anti-Liverpool WUM!
Tim Vick, you obviously have a clear vision of me – maybe you’d like to present me with this weeks winning lottery numbers!October 13, 2015 at 7:47 pm #666457
Mikus, I see your problem mate but again you stumble on the problem of explaining why your moral standards are objectively true. For me, morality is about how you choose to act and behave with respect to the other living beings that share this world with you. You are allowed to hold your morality as absolute in this regard, but if morality was as simply defined and understood as you seem to believe, why would we need democracy?
Your comparison is meaningless to me mate, but I get what you are saying in principle.
All you need to do now is articulate who is actually “suffering” as a result of the global game, how they are suffering, and how you could regulate the game to eradicate this suffering without creating equal or worse suffering elsewhere.
A lot of people who used to be able to afford tickets can no longer, it is sad, but when they were able to afford tickets and attend regular matches, how much thought did they give to those who loved football just the same but couldnt even afford it then? You want to see football at retro price, go to championship or lower, the PL is obviously going to charge the highest prices as set by the market, it has always been that way. (This particular argument could be redundant if the match going fans boycotted live games, the clubs now take in far more money through TV and could afford to lower prices if the fans can show the clubs that they want a better deal, but continuing to renew season tickets and filling stadiums ill not achieve this).
I think the main difference between us is that you seem to be analysing the state of the game through a political ideology and fitting it into your paradigm, I am just describing what I see.
I, like you, dont want to see anyone suffering for my benefit mate, but I am not convinced that this particular type of suffering you are talking about is actually true suffering or whether it deserves compassion, let alone regulations.
Finally mate, thank you very much for continuing to give me the time of day, and I, as a social retard, but rationally minded one, have taken a lot from our many conversations.