Man Utd v Huddersfield

This topic contains 221 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by MacGuffin MacGuffin 6 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #1595187
    O.T Fax Machine
    O.T Fax Machine
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    @Mac…. “New signings get a free pass from me the first year. ”

    Pity that’s never applied to both Rojo, Blind under LVG or Lindelof currently….

    Anyways,where are all those who blasted Jose for signing Matic from Chelsea, and had the gall to say they screwed us by selling us a useless, slower, older Matic and replacing him with a Younger, more dynamic Bakayoko? To say Bakayoko is shite is an absolute understatement….
    We all know who the Chelski mob would have between the 2

    #1595206
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @OT Fax Machine – Did you ever heard me criticise those players in their first year. Did I criticise LvG his first year. Im (in)famous here for being the only person to defend Moyes arguing he should get a second year. I even thought Taibi should have been given time !!!

    Regarding Matic – I do criticise the policy of signing players nearing or over 30 but do not criticise the player himself the first year.

    #1595219

    happyhurling
    Participant
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    OTFM – It was hilarious reading JM1502 state, quite matter of factly, that we had simply given Chelsea the money to go out and buy a younger better midfielder than Matic!! ha ha ha!!!

    #1595288
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
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    OTFM-You got this all wrong mate imho,just because Chelsea used the money from the sale of Matic to buy someone who in his 1st season is struggling big time,does not mean they have not screwed us! Matic and Bakayoko were NOT the only 2 players in the world playing in that position! Are there better players than Matic we could have got for less/same amount of money? Who is to say Bakayoko will not turn it around and become another Kante/Essien/Vieira?! Of course he could be loaned out/sold tomorrow,what do I know!

    #1595382

    happyhurling
    Participant
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    Mac – I saw this on twitter and thought of you;

    This time 2 years ago we were being beat by F.C. Midtjylland with a back 4 of Donald Love, McNair, Smalling and Blind. Depay was played as a lone striker and we were considering putting in a bid of £40m for Ighalo of Watford. And some people can’t see progress under Mourinho?!! 🤔

    #1595401
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    happyhurling – And this year we were knocked out of the EFL by Bristol with a backline of Darmian Lindelof Rojo Shaw ! Then we improved our backline to Valencia Smalling Jones Young.

    And as I recall under LvG you guys were all cockahoop talking about the progress we made since Moyes and how LvG was laying the foundations of a great side.

    The problem is happy, you see progress only in terms of results. If we finish 2nd. you will argue the team is making progress because of the improved position. I see progress in terms of building a team, spirit and style comparable to what we had under Fergie. I see it in terms of pieces in a jigsaw puzzle and getting closer to the final finished product. For me, there are too many missing pieces and I’m not convinced some of the pieces we’ve got are the right ones because I can’t see the picture taking shape.

    How many players do we have who on the basis of proven performance for the club can be considered stars of a future great side. We’ve discussed this before and all your stars are subject to them developing as hoped.

    #1595440
    killyboye
    killyboye
    Participant
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    @Mac, I think I’ve said something similar to this in the thread on Mourinho agreeing to sell DDG/swap DDG.
    We’ve too many jack of all trade players or decent players and not enough players who are top class specialists in their position.
    In defence, our two first choice wing backs are actually wingers and although they’re doing a decent job, they’re not specialist wing backs in the mould of Irwin, Neville, Evra to name a few. The second choice players (Shaw, Darmian) who are specialist wing backs are being displaced by players who should, in theory, be worse in that position than them. We also have Blind who is the ultimate jack of all trade, adequate in all positions yet master of none.
    In central defence we have Bailly, Smalling Jones, Rojo, Lindelof; Rojo can and has been deployed at left back and Smalling and Jones have both been played at either right back or on the rare occasion, an anchorman in midfield. Bailly looks great but is seemingly permanently injured and it’s Lindelof’s first season so we’ll pass judgment on him until next year.
    In midfield we have Carrick, Pogba, Matic, Herrera, Mata, McTomminay, Fellaini, seemingly the only position where players are actually played in their position yet Herrera has been abysmal this season, Carrick is over the hill, McTomminay is making progress but it’s early days. Matic started brightly but seems to have faded slightly. Fellaini is looking like he’s gone in the summer and with his injury he may just have played his last game, an ignominious 8 mins in a 2-0 defeat to Spurs, fitting perhaps. Pogba is world class but he’s not the finished article, makes you wonder if he will ever be, is Brand Pogba more important than Paul Pogba? Mata is played on the wing where he’s too small and too slow to be truly effective.
    On the wings Lingard is quick but should he actually be a central midfield player? And he’s not good enough to start regularly if the squad was up to scratch. Sanchez is a winger but Jose needs to tell him he’s going to play in one position and then stick to it.
    Rashford and Martial are forwards but are playing on the wing, both right footed left wingers, the logic of that escapes me to be honest but it reflects the game today where wingers don’t cross but cut inside.
    Finally Lukaku and Ibra, Lukaku isn’t playing to his strengths, he’s not a Pogba hold up linking striker, he’s a big target man who can head or run but he’s not good enough to create play. Ibra? There are no words….
    In other words, even after two seasons and 7(?) signings, there’s a shitload of work to be done on this squad. Maybe the young players coming in can bridge the gap, Fosu-Mensah (who’s been good at Palace), Tuanzebe (who can only benefit from working with Bruce & Terry at Birmingham), Gomes and others. Results-wise we’re doing okay but we’re not going to win the League or the CL with this squad, or play the kind of football we want to see.

    #1595467
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    killyboye – Excellent assessment. And this is my point, despite 3 transfer windows and hundreds of millions spent and available, I don’t see a team taking shape. For how many positions can we say we say “that’s sorted no need to worry about that for years to come”.

    Does the first team pick itself. Does the team function as a team where players instictively know the moves, where to be, where to pass the ball. Are pairings being formed in central defence, midfield, the attack. Is there a team spirit, the commitment, the passion. Are there leaders to take the game by the scruff of the neck. I don’t see it taking shape. Its 11 jigsaw pieces taken out of the box at random and we’re hoping to see the final picture.

    #1595476
    killyboye
    killyboye
    Participant
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    No

    #1595498
    O.T Fax Machine
    O.T Fax Machine
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    @Mac… U will find that the Matic/Bakayoko excerpt wasn’t particularly aimed at u. However, u have been openly critical and passed Judgement on Lindelof just 7months into his stint with us, which then throws ur argument about giving new players a pass for the 1st year out the window….

    @redblood…. I was actually referring to the meltdowns when we signed Matic while we were constantly linked to Bakayoko as well. U were one of those who said they have screwed us and I am yet to see how that’s the case, given how much we had been struggling without a CDM in our side. U do realize that Chelsea play a back 5 yet have conceded far more goals then us, they have generally been struggling this season especially in the CM position, where they had apparently strengthened by selling us their weaklink….. Yes he may end up being a Kante/Essien or just another Flop….
    What I find even more ironic from your above staunch defense of Bakayoko is how easily u have deemed our own Lindelof a flop, when he also just arrived in the PL, yet the guy who has been constantly proving he’s not good enough gets a free pass because he wasn’t signed by United? Lindelof will not improve yet Bakayoko will? Wow owk….

    #1595509
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @OTFM – NO I HAVE NOT been critical of Lindelof other than perhaps including him in a list of the defenders not to standard. I challenge you to quote where I have specifically criticised Lindelof other than perhaps saying something like … has yet to secure a position.

    Incidentally I did criticise the Matic signing on the basis of his age and my view we should not sign old players. AND I did say I would have rather spent the cash on Bakayoko for the simple reason that young players can go up whereas the only direction for old players is down.

    #1595521
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
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    OTFM-I have NOT labelled Lindelof a failure,nor will I call/defend Bakayoko anything in the 1st season.The rule in written in stone-every player should be given @ least couple of seasons before he is classified as anything! Remember T.Henry and how he struggled? Yes we have improved with Matic a lot,but he was/is only a short-term solution! But of course we needed an upgrade on Fellaini/Herrera/Carrick.Ideally I would have had someone like Verratti or Kante,but Matic will do-for now!

    #1595535
    killyboye
    killyboye
    Participant
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    @Mac I don’t see it taking shape. Its 11 jigsaw pieces taken out of the box at random and we’re hoping to see the final picture.
    The real problem is that it’s 11 jigsaw pieces taken at random from 11 different boxes and being squashed together like a toddler would. That’s the problem.

    #1595540

    happyhurling
    Participant
    • :

    Mac – Not sure why the Bristol result is comparable to the one i was talking about? But as you’re being pedantic (for a change) here’s a some other insights from that season to now;

    Our top goal scorer was Martial with 17 goals, Lukaku already has 18.
    We finished 3rd in our CL group, we won it this season.
    We finished 5th in the league, we’re currently 2nd.
    We conceded 35 goals in the league, we’ve only conceded 18 after 26 games.

    That season we sold Nani, RVP, Rafael, Di Maria and Hernandez and replaced them with Depay, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Martial. Darmian seems like he’ll be off in the summer, which will leave only Martial at the club and the only one on the list to have any kind of success.
    Armed with his new players LVG then went and lost 3-0 away at Arsenal, (we’ve beaten them at their place 3-1 this season). And continued to lose to the following teams;

    Swansea (We beat them 4-0 this season)
    Bournemouth (We beat them 1-0 this season)
    Stoke (We’ve beaten them 3-0 and drawn with them this season)
    Sunderland (Not in the league!)
    West Brom (We beat them 2-1 this season)
    West Ham! (We beat them 4-0 this season)

    And we Suffered humiliating home defeats to Norwich (Not in the league any more) and Southampton who we beat 1-0 and drew 0-0 with this season.

    But no, there’s been no progress since then at all!

    #1595556
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @happyhurling – I’ve said this umpteen times in umpteen topics – you measure success only in terms of results and statistics. As you yourself mentioned in another topic there are not statistics for every aspect of the team or game. And the statistics there are, are far from true reflections. I can elaborate but will spare you the lesson.

    Your cherry picking post is fairly meaningless and you omit the causes and conclusions throughout. I listed in an above post various aspects where I do not see progress. You address none of those issues. I asked you in other topics about the key players and you named players you HOPED would become stars not those who indisputably already are.

    In JM first season we failed to make top 4. Did you use your simplistic stats then to conclude the team was going in the wrong direction. You cite goals conceded as evidence of a good defence. I agree the goals conceded stat is impressive. Do you therefore conclude the defense is solid and needs no major surgery? Get the point. Stats are misleading.

    This is the same mistake you ALWAYS make. You concluded from our title win the team was healthy, good to go in fact. You failed to dig deeper than the surface.

    I am looking at assets in the bank. You look at bets that may bring handsome rewards but the roulette wheel has not stopped spinning. We could lose. My god, even the manager is far from being a safe bet. He may be off elsewhere and he may be a spent force.

    The only progress I see is scraping victories against mid table team we could have drawn against last year AND scoring more goals against the cannon fodder of the PL. In terms of the rebuilding job being closer to finishing, I dont see it.

    In the summer you said the team needed just a few tweaks. Come Xmas you called for massive changes, arguing “can’t I change my mind”. Now you argue that when minor surgery is upgraded to major surgery the patient is making progress.

    #1595573

    happyhurling
    Participant
    • :

    Mac – And you’re now doing the same thing that you ALWAYS do. The only stat that’s important is the result right? So why do you keep saying that I only look at results, that’s what football is about – the result!
    You’ve said you can’t see progress which is patently untrue, there are loads of indicators to prove the progress we’ve made – loads!

    Jose failed to make the top 4 so did I use my stats to calculate that we were going in the wrong direction? Yes and no! Most of used common sense on that one because we prioritised winning the Europa League. Whilst conceding that finishing outside the top 4 was a concern and can’t happen again. Which is why being 2nd in the league now shows clear progress because, you know, we’ve beaten more teams this season than we did last season.

    As for the transfer thing let me spell it out for you again. I was happy with the transfer business in the summer, I believed the team was capable of winning the league this season – it was. But nobody saw City having an unprecedented season, well apart from Zico obviously. Having grown frustrated over the Christmas period that city we’re going to run away with it I said why don’t we go out and just buy loads of attacking players to see if we can reel them in.
    That DOESNT mean that I wasn’t happy with the transfer business in the summer.

    #1595869
    theMartial Art
    theMartial Art
    Spectator
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    @macguffin – Whatever colour tablets you are on you need to come off them quickly they are affecting your brain cells. How many world class players do the great Man United sides of the recent past have?

    2008 uefa champions league final man utd line up

    Van Der sar
    Wes Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra
    Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes, Ronaldo
    Rooney, Tevez
    Subs: Kuszcach, Giggs, Nani, Anderson, Oshea, Fletcher, Silvestre

    1999 uefa champions league final man utd line up

    Schmeichel
    Gary Neville, Stam, Ronny Johnsen, Irwin
    Giggs, Butt, Beckham, Blomqvist
    Cole, Yorke
    Subs: Van Der Guow, Solskjaer, Sheringham, David May, Phillipe Neville, Wes Brown, Jonathan Greening

    How many of these players are world class? Are you telling me Lingard is not as good as the players on the sub bench? You blasphemous so and so lol seriously though what world do you live in? Lingard is a hardworking, great at link-up play, almost perfect when it comes to executing his tactical role, versatile and a nifty finisher in and around the box. He is an exemplary figure for all homegrown players who come through the ranks of big teams and want to carve out a role for themselves. Lingard would be a great attacking midfield bench option for any truly world-class Man United squad. He’d also be a reliable rotation player at any club in world football.

    #1595888
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Participant
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    Rooney was on the left and Ronaldo was up front that night in 2008 TMA, just for accuracy on your line up and formation.

    Best United side I’ve ever watched that.

    #1595922
    Zico
    Zico
    Participant
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    @hippodarling-Football is not only about results but if you are a plastic fan its all about results. You cant measure progress in results against teams last year and this year. The teams we lost to or draw against last season can have changed many players this year and they could have many injuries or having injuries on important players this year. Thats stupid and ignorant to measure this way and holds no water at all.

    What you can measure is HOW we play this year from last year.
    As you have noticed it changes during the season too.

    From the start of this season we played attacking football.
    It changed when we played Liverpool away.
    We had the same players then but Mourinho changed the tactic.
    Our attacking players were told to defend and that was like putting a big wrench in the machinery of our attack.

    So you see there are more parameters to include than the results.

    Do you understand?

    #1595941

    happyhurling
    Participant
    • :

    Zico – I don’t pretend to know what the fuck you’re ever on about. But I’ll have a little go here. So based on your analysis the performances are a sign of progress more than the results. Can we assume then that City aren’t better this season than they were last season because they’re playing the same way. It’s just this year they’re winning the games and last year they weren’t. Chelsea are playing the same way too as they did when they won the title. But they’re about to sack their manager because they look like they’ll finish outside the top 4.
    Do you see how fucking stupid your logic is? Actually, don’t bother answering that.

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