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This topic contains 49 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by MacGuffin MacGuffin 7 years ago.

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  • #1455754

    fergiesarmy
    Participant
    • :

    Seriously believe all the mess were in is fergusons fault. He just never spent money…kept saying theres no value in the market, yet city bought yaya,sergio,silva for what? 80million? Combined? I cannot believe he left the team in the shitters… and then thers the moyes scenario that he picked!

    #1455770

    yorkshireman200
    Participant
    • :

    No doubt Fergie bought badly in his latter years but don’t be fooled by the “no value in the market” bullshit. The Glazers couldn’t spend because they were struggling to finance the debt they brought with them.

    #1455795

    Fergie took a club struggling with drunks and mid-table mediocrity and built a trophy-laden dynasty lasting decades – he won the league (at a canter) in his last season with a strong squad. When he left the club had De Gea, Evra, Valencia, Berbatov, Rooney, Hernandez, Vidic, Carrick, Nani, Van Persie, Kagawa and Fletcher not to mention good young players in Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Welbeck, Lingard, Michael and Will Keane, Joshua King, Fabio and Zaha. If Fergie stayed on another year and had another transfer market he would have probably won or come very close to winning the league, like he did for decades. It’s not his fault that Woodward and Moyes were absolutely rubbish in the transfer market and decided to spend money on Fellaini only; the funds were there but the club didn’t get any transfers done because they couldn’t sell water to a rich man on a desert island. Add to that the fact that Moyes totally killed morale went a long way to United falling so low so quickly, not Fergie.

    If Fergie carried on an extra year or Mourinho was hired immediately, I’d bet my car that United wouldn’t have finished anywhere close to 7th and wouldn’t be where they are today. So we need to stop all this “it’s Fergie’s fault coz he didnt invest” – no, Fergie won the league in his last year and left a good young group of players for the next manager, the next manager just failed to live up to expectations at all.

    #1455796

    Scholsey
    Participant
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    Fergie was never afraid to break the transfer record before the Glazers so I blame them.

    #1455812

    Ackb050
    Participant
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    Granted fergie should never have chosen moyes but fergie was a rare breed British as well as a legend. Moyes on the other hand such a poor manager his time at Sunderland and Spain is another example. Nobody respected moyes players fan even other managers. Moyes struck lucky with United big club way bigger than any British manager should get. There’s no British manager that could manage any of the top six clubs. Moyes was probably within the top five of British managers that have done ok. Because of moyes we are where we are.

    #1455827

    jm1502
    Participant
    • :

    There’s no doubting Ferguson’s achievements, we all know that, and they’ll never be equalled. But he dropped his fair share of bollocks along the way. You’ve got to have a bit of luck in this life, and Fergie certainly had more than his fair share.

    #1455889
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    I agree with yorkshireman200. The Glazers pulled the pursestrings tight because they needed every penny to service the debt.
    The Glazers were under intense media scrutiny with almost rioting about the debt. Fergie and Gill were doubtless bought off to shield the Glazers from criticism by insisting money was available but there was no value. Ridiculous.

    And some fans deflected criticism by trying to suggest that our failure to sign top players was down to the player not wanting to come rather than United not willing to pay the price. One example is Hazard. Instead of paying the price and getting the deal done we held out hoping to pay less and while we huffed and puffed Chelsea came along, agreed to the price and got our man.

    It was a straight battle between United and Chelsea for his signature. Hazard met with Ferguson and Roman Abramovich but there was also the small matter of the fee. The London club were prepared to go as high as £32million. United, at Ferguson’s insistence, were not.

    http://www.the42.ie/eden-hazard-manchester-united-missed-signings-2071329-Apr2015/

    #1455890
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @Sympathy
    Rubbish. Everybody agrees it was a poor squad of old players, mediocre players, misfits and no hopers. DDG was the only decent player. Look at the fees we sold players, look at how good they’ve been since leaving. IF the players were up to scratch why did the Glazers agree to spend so much on the squad. They are not known for splashing the cash.

    Fans like you blamed Moyes saying a better manager would get the best out of them. We got rid of Moyes and got a better manager. And what did he do. He got shot of them. Mourinho will no doubt continue the cull and get rid of the remnants of Fergie’s players.

    Had Fergie stayed we would probably have ended up 4th or 5th. If he thought he had chance of another title or CL you think he would have gone. He left because he did not want to be captain of the ship when it sunk.

    #1455901
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
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    Please tell me you don`t take this sympathy guy for serious Mac?.His comments are comical,would be like taking Del Boy as a serious businessman,lol.

    #1455964

    Scholsey
    Participant
    • :

    Had fergie stayed we would probably have ended 4th or 5th…… bollocks.

    There is just as much chance if not more (previous experience) that he would have got the right personnel to make sure we stayed competitive.

    #1455974

    @macguffin and redblood – what proof do you have that United would have not been competitive the following year? Everyone said united had a rubbish squad in 12-13 yet we won the league at a canter. People predicted that, when we got rid of Ronaldo and tevez and got Valencia and Owen instead we had no chance of winning the league… Yet we kept winning leagues or coming a close second, we made another champions league final. What on earth makes you think fergie would have failed after 20+ years of practically non-iron success?!

    Oh yeah… That’s right… You’re geniuses at football and think players like Carrick and Valencia should be sold but we should have kept depay and gave him more chances lol

    #1455986
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
    • :

    Not saying anything about Fergie @Sympathy,who knows what might have happened had Fergie stayed.And nobody is saying players like Carrick and Valencia should not be signed,just that they should be replaced.That`s all.

    #1455991

    Big K
    Participant
    • :

    Messi

    #1456005

    nath44
    Participant
    • :

    SAF left the club for personal reasons, what’s so hard to understand about that? If you don’t like him fine, but don’t suggest rubbish to fit your agenda against him.

    Some are far to quick to undermine a man who brought us unprecedented success. Granted, he made mistakes but they were few and far between compared to the good times he helped give us.

    #1456027

    emmicallef
    Participant
    • :

    Sympathy – you disturbed a hornet’s nest there ‘compadre’. thought we had exhausted this issue over the last 4 years.

    There is absolutely no logic to try and deprive Sir Alex from his sack full of achievements,and there is no one with a sane mind who wouldn’t take whatever Sir has dished out and yes,that includes a host of clangers,mistakes,ass licking,lies, and everything else one wants to throw at the big man. After all in spite of his god like untouchable status,he was just a human being like everyone else, and therefore prone to off days at the office.

    My personal observation/criticism has always been the take – over preparation . I always felt that being the man he was,he could have directed proceedings much better and wiser.

    I also feel he was restricted,for a lengthy period by the owners who I deem were not a good thing to happen under the circumstances.

    #1456029
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    SAF left the club for personal reasons, what’s so hard to understand about that?
    @nath44 – SAF told a fib, what’s so hard to believe about that ! Do you believe that the reason people in power give for retiring is always the real reason? SAF loved managing, why would he give it up to give lectures in America or wherever. Yes he may have wanted more time with his family but he could have made Giggs his assistant and delegate work to him and others staff.

    I believe he knew the team needed rebuilding, massive spending would be needed and it would take time. At his age he did not feel he had the time and energy to build another great side.

    @emmicallef – But it was not just “off days at the office.” it was a trend and had become the norm. The “no value” argument was not a one off. He continued to buy cheap and pray youngsters would come good. Gone were the days of the hairdryer after insipid performance, far from it, he made excuses for poor performance. Gone was the focus on flair and fast attacking football.

    Age gets to everybody and Fergie showed symptoms that come with age. Doting on his aging stars, reluctant to part with them. Thinking he still had the Midas touch and Nani Zaha etc would become Ronaldos. AND add to this, the Glazers would be paying him well to toe the company line by not making waves for the owners about money.

    #1456030
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    Had fergie stayed we would probably have ended 4th or 5th…… bollocks.
    @Scholesy – Do you think we would have challenged for the title (ie 1-2 spot) or been also rans in 3-4-5 spot. Look at the players who would be leaving … Vidic, Rio, Evra Scholes, Giggs. Add to that Rooney and Carrick who were past sell by date. RvP injuries were bound to catch up. That would leave us with a team of misfits like Nani, Kagawa, no hopers like Zaha, mediocre like Welbeck and Smalling. My god our central defence would have been Smalling Jones Evans.

    There is just as much chance if not more (previous experience) that he would have got the right personnel to make sure we stayed competitive.
    This is the problem. On what basis do you believe he would “have got the right personnel”. He had not been getting the right players for years. That trend would have continued. I doubt the Glazers would have made the funds available to him they did for LvG. It took the sharp shock of no CL for them to see that they needed to invest.

    I am sure so long as Fergie could have scraped 4th and made the CL, the Glazers would not have invested. And SAF would have persevered with the likes of Cleverly, Evans, Welbeck, Zaha etc. hoping to get the acclaim for another generation like Fergie Fledglings. Look at the character of the man.

    #1456034
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    what proof do you have that United would have not been competitive the following year?
    @Sympathy – The “proof” is in the weakness of the squad. Everybody admits it was a poor squad.

    1. Rio Vidic Evra Giggs Scholes – past it and retiring
    2. Rooney Carrick Fletcher – past it. What have they done since.
    3. RvP – it was inevitable he would become injured and age would catch up.
    4. Jones, Evans, Rafael, Anderson, Fabio, Cleverly, Zaha, Powell – would never make the grade. Look at them now,
    5. Hernandez, Welbeck, Nani, Kagawa Smalling Buttner Young Valencia – should have stepped up to become the stars like Vidic and Scholes were stars. They would be decent players at a mid table team but not good enough to be United stars. Look at their value on the transfer market and the clubs interested in them.
    6. As for youth, SAF let Pogba go. How can that give confidence he still had the ability to spot talent. Was there any stars coming through youth? Any George Best or Paul Scholes?

    Tell me who would have been the stars the next year. Would RvP not be injured. Would Rooney roll back the years. Would Smalling have become a Vidic? Would Jones have become Duncan Edwards or Cleverly a Bobby Charlton.

    Our performances were not those of champions, our football was woeful. We scraped wins with luck, Fergie Factor and last minute RvP goals. We were also helped by rivals having bad seasons. We were not a team on the rise, it was the last swan song for our veteran fading stars.

    #1456070

    @macguffin – I understand your point however your points are based off of perceptions and the way players were handled by other managers. Here’s a few examples:

    1. Rio Vidic Evra Giggs Scholes – past it and retiring – Evra continued playing and was a huge success at Juventus and could’ve been used for a few more year, likewise Vidic and Rio weren’t exactly replying on pace at that stage and, with Jones, Smalling and Evans around, they was a good amount of squad depth and mix of youth and experience there.

    2. Rooney Carrick Fletcher – past it. What have they done since. – Rooney had a good year afterwards then went downhill – I’m sure Fergie would not have let him fall to the levels he has now. Carrick continues to play to this day, plus I’m sure Fergie would have brought in one or two midfielders in the next years to compensate for his age and Fletcher leaving.

    3. RvP – it was inevitable he would become injured and age would catch up. – RVP won us the league that year and Fergie had high regard for him; there’s no reason to not believe he could have gotten another good year out of him given that RVP loved him as a coach.

    4. Jones, Evans, Rafael, Anderson, Fabio, Cleverly, Zaha, Powell – would never make the grade. Look at them now – Jones is still here, Evans is doing great at West Brom, we had Michael Keane at the time too who has just made his England debut. Zaha was mishandled at United by Moyes. The rest I agree with you.

    For the rest of the points, the other players would have remained good squad players which Fergie would have used properly – like he did for 20 years. Fergie was actually an excellent judge of talent as he took players many people considered to be average (Hernandez, Valencia, etc) and made them into title-winning material (you only need to look at Hernandez at Bayer Leverkusen after he left to see that he is actually a very good player in his own style).

    My point in all of this is that, yes perhaps you and others are right that MAYBE the club may have been heading towards a downward spiral whether Fergie stayed or not, HOWEVER it is unjustified to blame Fergie as he did leave the next manager with a title-winning club, a number of good young players and also good experienced players – it’s not like he botched a league title with crap players ala Leicester; we’re talking about a squad that was constantly coming 1st or 2nd year after year.

    #1456110
    killyboye
    killyboye
    Participant
    • :

    I think it’s fair to say that Fergie was hamstrung by the Glazers in not being able to upgrade the squad sufficiently but it’s also fair to say that it was a squad that was in decline, if only at the start of the curve when he left.
    It’s also fair to say that the squad was woefully mismanaged by Moyes and LVG. Players were allowed to leave who shouldn’t have been, Hernandez would have been a great squad player although he probably wasn’t happy to be one either but he could have gotten a lot more starting time last season when we were in sore need of a striker, Evra would have been a leader when we were shorn of our biggest ones and Rooney didn’t and still hasn’t filled the gap and should have been offered anything to stay.
    I think with Pogba, Fergie was trying to prove a point. Raiola and Pogba were making demands about getting game time, about starting and probably wanted assurances about both, which Fergie was definitely unwilling to give, especially given that Pogba was pretty much unproven at senior level at that time. Having a teenager and his agent coming into his office demanding things from him, and from the club, would have pissed Fergie off no end and so he was shown the door, or allowed to leave, depending on your point of view.

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