RIP

This topic contains 555 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by steveosnakeeye steveosnakeeye 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 481 through 500 (of 556 total)
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  • #1465985
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    Good article CM, blocking foreign money from coming in to mosques sounds like a no-brainer.

    It’s safe to say that sort of teaching (that there’s a religious war coming – from people like the Saudi Grand Mufti) has no place in the country. It’s hate speech, is illegal, and should be prosecuted.

    Paxman, you’re minimising the problem by focusing only on the killers. Which is like saying Nazi Germany wasn’t too bad because only 1 in every 5 of them ever killed anybody, the other 4 out of 5 were peaceful…
    The cause itself is the enemy… It’s the bad ideas that are turning these people into killers, and it’s the bad ideas we should be going after.

    #1466139

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    JC- I don’t dispute that going after the ring leaders is a priority but the bad ideas as you put it are not part of the Muslim religion, it is a only a very small section that are radicalised, and yes we should be targeting them from the top.

    Did we condemn all Catholics after this:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/IRA_Bishopsgate.JPG

    #1466191
    Jay belfast
    Jay belfast
    Participant
    • :

    I have been someone in the past who has said I don’t think the Muslim leaders do enough to condemn attacks etc and perhaps they do but I just don’t see it. Perhaps that’s the fault of the media not chasing or showing interviews with these people but i just dont see it. Perhaps the muslim religion/community is not structured in a way that means it has obvious centralised leaders etc i dont know.

    Paxman highlights the IRA and catholicism and here in northern ireland following any attack/bombing/murder etc you had religous leaders interviewed condemning the attacks, you had prominent republican politicians condemning interviewed condemning the attacks etc.

    I believe that media pressure is finally what pushed northern ireland towards peace. It turned public opinion/support completely against violence as a solution and the IRA no longer had the support to continue to fight. It forced sinn fein (the ira’s polical wing) to go down a completely political route to “fight” for their cause.

    Now I know the Northern Ireland situation is not on the scale of the current situation but I think we need to see more condemnation following attacks from the Muslim the community to dissuade individuals from getting radicalised etc. Seeing christian leaders reach out to the muslim community and vice versa taking part in cross community projects together would also help.

    I believe there was a peace march by a young muslim group following the attack in westminster…this kind of stuff is needed more.

    #1466203

    nine nine nine
    Moderator
    • :

    Great post Jay especially the last para.

    #1466294

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Jay – Your right, that march was a fantastic way for Muslims to say ‘We are not one of you’ to the radicals, and more of these sorts of things are needed.

    One of the big issues is the media, what is going to sell more papers, the 20+ Muslim clerics condemning the attacks, or the one radical nutter shouting death to the West, I know which one the Mail and the like would have on the front pages.

    We have a high level of Muslims in the area I live and on local news after these events all the Muslim leaders in the area are condemning these attacks.

    #1466488
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    Pax how on Earth did you get the idea in your head I meant all Muslims?!
    I dare say you’re a bit soft in the head and have been indoctrinated yourself. Into the idea that people who criticise radicals need to be immediately silenced with #notallmuslims hashtags.

    I’m talking about people who believe there is an impending war coming against non belivers, and non belivers blood can be legitimately spilled in the eyes of God. Something that some (which means ‘not all’) religious leaders are currently teaching people in this country.
    Apparently there was recently found to be 20 (out of 152) mosques in the country teaching this. So a more appropriate analogy, than yours, would be: if 20 out of 152 Catholic churches in Ireland were teaching that Protestants are subhuman and it’s ok to kill them, and we should kill them in an impending war soon.

    What action would you suggest in that scenario? Silencing critics of the problem by labelling them religious bigots, then countering them with the brainless #notallcathoics argument?!

    Again that’s not all muslims. But it’s a big problem and this nonsense needs to stop happening in our country, for the benefit of moderate Muslims and non Muslims alike.

    Good point Jay about public opinion. We need to see public opinion shift, unbelievably there are still a huge percentage of people (including the govt) who repeatedly defend perpetrators of this ‘holy war mantra’. It’s just plain wrong and they are delaying progress on this issue, if you ask me.

    #1466514
    D1rtyH4rry
    D1rtyH4rry
    Participant
    • :

    The key I think with these radicals, is to stop sensationalising the religious motives. That’s what a radical will want to believe. That when he goes and does some dumb shit, the whole world and his dog will talk about how he did for Islam, and he was a part of this or that terrorist organisation. Instead if we just paint them as the criminals they are with their crimes laid bare. Surely that will lessen the glamour for the rest of the nut jobs.

    #1466528
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    if only it were that simple, they do these acts in the name of a religion, for a group that tried to have a new caliphate spread over several countries and many countries around the world follow this religion as a primary in one form or another and many of those forms are not great then you have said people of said religion preaching hate int the very countries that offer them a home and shelter and freedom and want to change said place to be the same under the same religious law…there not just radicals or rather the ones that blow themselves and others up or run them over re just the weapons of the radicals who number in the millions in one form or another…..

    #1466560

    Laughing Lenny
    Participant
    • :

    This interesting discussion has been ricocheting all over the place and there’s been a fair share of bollocks spouted too. I appreciate that no problem can meaningfully withstand the assault of sustained thinking but let’s regroup and get back to basics.
    The Muslim religion by definition has always been, and will always be in hopeless conflict with Christianity and our modern western way of life. The millions of Muslims we have naively and graciously accepted into our green and pleasant land and are now duty bound to financially support for the rest of their lives, are diametrically opposed to our hard fought-for accepted western customs we hold so dear. They have little or no respect for western culture whatsoever other than our obscene financially disastrous overly generous handouts. Most of the first generation and second generation Muslim immigrants have hardly any inkling whatsoever to integrate into British society. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia are busy financially commissioning the construction of the next 200 new mosques to spread their word throughout the UK.
    Don’t delude yourselves boys, Sharia law is already practiced in parts of London, Leicester, Birmingham and many other cities in the UK. Just try walking hand-in-hand with your wife or girlfriend around Whitechapel after dark and you’ll quickly get my drift.
    Something drastic should have been done about this 10 years ago, but nothing was. We were, and still are, an open door. We live in a country that prides itself in being politically correct and humane. The problem is, our politicians are weak and not up to the job.
    Personally I’m sick of any of anyone who is content to take our generous handouts in one hand and at the same time poke their arses up five times a day to the west. It’s taking the piss.
    Where and how our hopeless politicians muddle along from here is anyone’s guess, but don’t hold your breath.
    I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again, the future is murder!
    Lenny.

    #1466581
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    That’s a bit paranoid Len.

    What’s more likely to happen is increasing pressure on the weak govt and their failing policies of the last 10-20 years, so they will start making sure existing ‘hate speech’ laws are being enforced properly, and introduce new laws to stop foreign powers politicising mosques in the UK.

    At that point, perhaps we’ll be isolating and stigmatising those with a problematic ideology properly, and start seeing progress on getting that 23% who want Sharia down to less than 1%.
    By the way, some of your own ideas are problematic, for example suggesting most muslims are on benefits, which I’m pretty isn’t true. Broad-sweeping and unsupported statements about muslims, obscures the conversation and fuels the unhelpful #notallmuslims rhetoric. You and Paxman are a bit like two sides of the same coin, both getting in the way of constructive conversation.

    There are muslims and ex-muslims in PEGIDA for example, there’s plenty of muslims out there who are against Sharia, many of who have experienced it and moved to the west for that very reason… to get away from government enforced authoritarianism.
    They would make natural allies in terms of driving islamic extremism out the country.
    But the government need to get some balls to make this happen, and right now there doesn’t seem to be anyone in the political mainstream who’s ready to deliver.

    #1466632

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    JC – You must be a bit soft in the head, posting a hashtag, and then writing hashtag after it 🙂

    Also yes you might not be old enough to remember it but the level of hate in the NI troubles was indeed comparable to the Muslim issue, the only difference was, it was mainly confined to the UK and not the world.

    #1466637

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    DH – Spot on, they are just basically right wing nutters, but from their own right wing, they should just be portrayed as such, nothing more just headcases using their god as an excuse to commit murder.

    #1466638

    nine nine nine
    Moderator
    • :

    Paxman@ 8:22am.two very different conflicts Pax.

    #1466639
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    he wrote ‘hashtags’ the key part is the ‘s’ making plural meaning that he actually is not soft in the head so much as you cannot read or understand a perfectly clear and valid sentence

    #1466651

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Laughing Lenny is too funny, I was down there with the Mrs about a month ago went to a few different pubs, obviously had to take her to the blind beggar as she had never been been, but also went to Bar Lock, Ten bells and The Grocer, all nice boozers and walked between them hand in hand the whole time and never felt threatened.

    Also taking my son to see Yung Fume on 24th in Shoreditch which is the same area, not concerned at all, do you spend all you time peaking from behind the curtains scared to go out 🙂

    #1466656

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    999 – Two very different conflicts? Not so sure, conflicts built on religion, two very different times? Definitely, the world is a smaller place than it was in the 80’s, and before you get all pedantic, that is metaphorically, times are different not the reasons.

    #1466661
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    shoreditch is not the same area you muppet, shoredithc is primarily a trendy area full of hipsters and a much more cosmopolitan vibe

    #1466663
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    you really are a first class plum, the IRA was NOT fighting a religious war spurred on by priests calling for the death of non believers. it was one group of people who wanted their country back that had been taken by the English…..

    id say you were soooooooo funny but your not its like watching a train wreck sometimes, i think i shall have to start referring to you as Brent….

    #1466671

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Steveo – How far is Whitechaple from Shoreditch? it is spitting distance, yes it is a trendy area but so is most of Whitechaple now, the point I was making is it is fine to walk hand in hand with your girl in either, but you would know that if you left your computer screen 🙂

    #1466678
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    Brent, this is one of the Major reason why your soooooo disliked. and called Brent.

    FYI

    I worked in Shoreditch for 12 years up to last year and get in to London via Fenchurch street and walk through Whitechapel, i know these areas very well indeed and stand by what i said and will back up much of was said by Lenny.

    Maybe you should pull your head out of your arse once in a while Brent, lot of crime and issues , hell of a lot more in whitechapel than shoreditch and mostly race related with many gangs of Asian youths

    happy that you and the Mrs skipped hand in hand round the area with no issues that must mean its OK.

    like walking through a field of landmines, if you make it to the other side then its all fine folks….

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