Time for a quiet pat on the back?

This topic contains 78 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by redblood redblood 5 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 19 posts - 61 through 79 (of 79 total)
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  • #1636625
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
    • :

    @zico. Let me try debate your points even though you are notorious for being unable to modify your views (my answers are emboldened):

    What is the “solid work” Mourinho is doing?

    We have our best points total and finish in the league since the great man retired, we have won the Europa League, League Cup, and are in the FA Cup final for this season plus we consistently beat the top 6 clubs.

    Keeping Smalling-Jones-Young making Valencia the captain?

    Shocking stuff to say the least. I am sure that Mourinho doesn’t keep these players because they are “good lads”. Have you thought about the possible financial constraints involved? Do you think Woodward and Mourinho might have a 5 year plan? Do you you think that if Mourinho was sacked tomorrow the next manager could replace these players with worldclass options like City do?

    Hangs on to Fellaini like a backstage groupie?

    Unacceptable footballer who shames the badge but Mourinho keeps him because he can always bring a “plan B”. I fully agree with you here, Fellaini has no place in our squad for the long run, regardless of his effectiveness but again, the manager is a pragmatist looking for all avenues to find the win.

    Replacing youngsters with 29ers?

    Unacceptable. If we lose Martial because of the Sanchez transfer, the writing will be on the wall. If however, we lose Luke Shaw for Alex Sandro then I will rejoice for the great talent and application we will gain instead of a lazy piece of something

    Breaking the wage structure for what?

    The wage structure is perfectly fine. We’ve got rid of Zlatan and Rooney recently and besides that, the numbers simply say that we are paying less than before. Sanchez aside (because he was free).

    Why cant he make players better?

    He has made Lingard, Rojo (last season before injury), McTominay, Lukaku, and Young better players individually but perhaps you need to look at the massive point difference improvement fist Zico – this is a football club looking for results, it is not an academy looking to improve individuals. I don’t care who improves – the team has improved and that is all that matters.

    Where is the gameplan of attacking football?

    Nowhere. It is known that Mourinho does not actually coach his team on attacking phases of play and lets the attackers do as they please. This is by far his biggest weak point.

    I see no creative things in possession,all i see is 10 individuals playing with way to many touches on the ball not knowing if the goal is south or north.
    There is no direct play,triangels,one two´s or combinations what so ever.
    Cant believe that he thinks he is not the culprit of all this.
    And i cant believe some of you after 2 years and 300M spent still think he is doing a solid work.

    The proof is in the pudding Zico. 38 games and 81 points with a 2nd place finish and a Champions League Quarter Final – every single one of these metrics are better than they were last season and are immeasurably better than van Gaal’s final season. You are justified in questioning the direction, style, and future prospects but I take exception to how readily you dismiss the good work of a worldclass professional doing good work for the club you support. I think in good time you will come to realize how important Mourinho’s tenure was for us because we are now in a position to complain about a second place finish and an FA Cup final. We are now finally starting to judge the club as we did when SAF was in the job but yet Mourinho has not had the time to f**k up like SAF did in his first three years and he hasn’t had the patience of people like you. Such is modern football. It’s nice and easy to say 300 million because it’s a big number for you but Barcelona have spent more than that on Dembele and Coutinho alone. PSG have spent 1.5 times that on Neymar and Mbappe alone. Guardiola has spent that on his defence alone in 18 months. Try your best to be fair and neutral to your club Zico, I know you hate being fair on the club but try your best.

    #1636631
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @hatters – You know I enjoy a meaty in-depth discussion so forgive me if I comment on your points.

    1] Once again progress is being measure solely in terms of silverware. And mickey mouse cups at that. You cite League Cup win as evidence of “solid work” yet by the same yardstick shouldn’t our League Cup exit be evidence of regression. You cite Europa League, a trophy we won by beating second level teams but omit our humiliating CL exit a year later to a second level team. Let’s be honest, the only decent team we’ve beaten in our cup runs to date is Spurs in the FA cup semi. And we’ve scraped by many small clubs.

    You cite our beating top6 clubs (that is good) but omit our defeats to newly promoted sides. Yes 2nd. is an achievement, agreed. But is it evidence of solid work. You are working backwards. Good work means improving the team and that improvement leads to improved results. You are looking at the output (trophies) and concluding it means the work must have been good. There is a lot of luck in football, results alone are not evidence of good work.

    You should look at all factors. Are performances improving. Are the signings goods. Are players improving, is a team taking shape, is the fear factor back, is the mood and morale improving. Are we any the more confident of success today than we were 2 years ago when LvG lifted the FA cup ?

    2] I doubt Ed would agree a 5 year plan then give JM a 3 year contract. That makes no sense. You are plucking the 5 year plan out of thin air.

    Yes I’m sure financial constraints play a large part in keeping deadwood BUT when Jose is begging Fellaini to stay and praising other deadwood it must say something. JM could easily keep quiet. And should we not look at JM signings. Had Pogba done the business he could be a shoo-in captain.

    3] Howcome people didn’t praise Moyes as a pragmatist for signing plan B Fellaini. You and others crucified Moyes for the signing yet now praise Jose for not getting rid of him.

    4] Focus on veteran players is an example of the fear JM is more concerned about a short term one-off title than the long term health of the club. But let’s see what happens in the summer.

    5] Wages is down to Ed so we can’t blame JM for that. And JM will be impacted when it comes to summer signings and total wage bill.

    6] Its moot if he has made those players better. But whats the sense in improving Young Rojo and not Pogba Martial Rashford Shaw Mikki Depay etc. He improves the deadwood so they can be kept but doesn’t improve the players who have the potential to be world class ????

    7] I doubt JM coaches. He decides the strategy and lets the assistants coach. Have we seen pictures of Jose on the training field?

    8] The pudding analagy is hogwash. I should know, I am a IS09000 quality system inspector for a certification body. The pudding could be good by sheer chance. Quality Assurance is, if the inputs – the cook, the recipe, the ingredients, the utensils are all good THEN the output, the pudding, must be good. You have it arse to face.

    =========
    Your praising of JM (worldclass professional) is indication of your bias. Managers like players can lose their touch, look at Wenger. The situation at United is unlike that in JMs previous clubs. LvG came with pedigree as well you remember. And like LvG JM has been fired from clubs. I wish I could dig out your comments on LvG.

    You are sticking your neck out banking on JM success. If he doesn’t succeed and the next manager moans about the players and mindset he inherited you will have a lot of egg on your face.

    #1636718

    happyhurling
    Participant
    • :

    Mac – You’re a QA? Wow, that explains so much! 😉

    #1636759
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
    • :

    @macguffin. It is difficult to respond to your argument because as usual, it is framed around the long term prospects/strategy of the club. As I mentioned in my first post, the assignment of blame for the ills of this club needs to go beyond that of the incumbent manager because the eventualities we find with ourselves today are not all his doing. I am assessing the performance of the manager and am addressing the fierce criticism I see him getting with a view to providing context so people on here can try view this from a more neutral standpoint. By the way, let’s be clear that I am not advocating for Mourinho to stay nor go, I am merely assessing his performance to date. In response to your 8 points:

    1. Yes you are correct, the trophies won are not the first prizes but winning breeds winning, it’s as simple as that. Although I understand your generally long term view towards the club at all times, I think you dismiss results too readily – especially when it comes to trophies. The club was founded for the purpose pursuing football excellence (memories, style, excitement etc) and filling the trophy room, they have to be measured equally in my view, A trophy is a trophy.

    2. Yes I am plucking this out of thin air. I just have a sneaking suspicion that Mourinho is much more highly favoured by the boards and entrenched into the club than most fans seem to think. I am speculating here.

    3. I cannot name one Manchester United fan who defends any Fellaini related matters. I stated that the man is keeping him as a plan B which is something I disagree with.

    4. Let’s see what happens in the summer.

    5. Fair points. Zico mentioned the wages.

    6. You make a valid point here. I am dissatisfied with Mourinho’s inability to improve Martial since the turn of the year. Again, this is one of the reasons he might get sacked if he doesn’t get it right very soon – inability to develop our attacking flow. As for Shaw and Depay – I don’t think they are good enough.

    7. Interesting point. I wouldn’t be surprised if Mourinho doesn’t do the coaching. It will be interesting to see how the setup changes with Rui Faria gone.

    8. Again, you are talking about the organization and not the football manager. I’m only talking about the cook and the recipe, you are talking about the ingredients and utensils as well.

    Mourinho is a worldclass professional, no question about it. In fact, my definition of a worldclass manager is any manager who has won a trophy in the top 5 European leagues. That includes LvG, Wenger, and all the other high profile worldclass professional football managers who take abuse from armchair fans.

    I am not sticking my neck out. I am making an assessment of Mourinho’s work to date which to me is simple: he’s done a good job of steadying the ship and restoring some winning culture but moving forward he must clear out deadwood and improve attacking flow – if not, I want him out.

    #1636775

    Manthistle
    Participant
    • :

    Who are the players Mourinho has got rid of that you would class as deadwood? I would say just Rooney & Schweinsteiger

    A lot of the players sold were previous manager signings that he didn’t fancy or youth players that he didn’t want to promote. Can you really deem them deadwood?

    Schneiderlin
    Depay
    McNair
    Varela
    Januzaj
    McNair
    Will Keane
    Love

    Has he brought deadwood players in?:

    Mkhitaryan
    Lindelof
    Bailly
    Zlatan
    Matic
    Sanchez

    The only 2 signings he’s brought in who appear to have a future at Utd are Lukaku and Pogba.

    #1636788
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
    • :

    @manthistle. I think you are incorrect in classing Sanchez, Matic, Lindelof, and Bailly as deadwood players.

    #1636797

    Manthistle
    Participant
    • :

    @hatters

    Sanchez – Maybe not right now but this time next year he’ll be 30 and we’ll be looking to replace, hence deadwood

    Matic – See Sanchez

    Lindelof – May be a bit early to tell but if he’s still at the same level this time next year you’d have to add him to the list of players that includes Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Blind who many would class as deadwood.

    Bailly – He’s never fit. He’s our best defender but he’s hardly ever available so unless he sorts that out you have to add him to the list of deadwood.

    #1636808
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
    • :

    @manthisle. Matic and Sanchez are not the ideal age bracket for us to be making signings in but they are not deadwood in my view. These are high quality senior players which every team needs, especially for the big games.

    Lindelof – he has looked increasingly assured since the turn of the year in my view. He is not “immense” yet but he is showing promise, next year is the crucial one for him. Not deadwood.

    Bailly – very worrying injury record. If the injuries don’t clear up next season he will have to be classed as deadwood but for now we can’t class him as deadwood.

    #1636822
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @hatters

    1. Yes I accept winning breeds winning but let’s not overplay it. Liverpool have been winning Mickey Mouse cups for donkey’s years but you would not use that as indicator of progress. And conversely, doing just enough to scrape by can breed complacency and result in exit from the CL.

    Regarding football exellence, I don’t think JM gets high marks on that scale. And its not as if we’re getting better or closer to excellence is it.

    2. There were many reports of opposition to JM appointment and he doesn’t have a good track record with owners. He has mini-moaned about funds and the team. Its just as likely he’ll lose support as retain it. We know how the board treated Moyes and LvG.

    3. Actually I defended Moyes signing him. Moyes said he was a handy tool (haha) to have at 14m. It was Eds screw up that made him into the star summer signing.

    4. OK

    5. OK

    6. Agreed but my point was it was illogical to argue he develops the crud whilst ignoring the cream. I don’t think he bothers with either. If a player improves its in spite of JM not because of him. But time will tell won’t it.

    7. I dont think any of the big club managers coach. Fergie stopped doing it. This is a reason I prefer a young track suit manager.

    8. I dont accept the argument about steadying the ship. The team JM inherited was not too bad. There was no rebellion, and if winning breeds winning isn’t a FA cup something to build on. Much of JM team has been LvG team.

    #1636915
    theMartial Art
    theMartial Art
    Spectator
    • :

    It amazes me how some fans fall for the charlatan, Jose. He pulls the same old confidence tricks now that he did years ago, but years ago there were new and he was given the benefit of the doubt. Now we know he is a specialist in narcissism who destroys players rather than develops them. Pogba was a Mournhio transfer in and he can’t get the best out of him when he knows his asset and formation at Juve but didn’t replicate at Utd? Rashford played half of season under LVG but that’s his best so far, Martial shows a great potential before Mourinho, Herrera United’s best midfielder last season under Mourinho but couldn’t make the starting this term coz Matic came in, Lukaku played better last season than the current, all these players some of them were world class like Pogba and Sanchez and some have the potential to be like Rashford Martial Lingard and Luke Shaw but under Mourinho they’re all average now and declining. Why Mournhio brought Sanchez when he could develop Rashford, Martial, Lingard! Perriera for many years to come is beyond me, or more significantly, beyond Mournhio’s ability and vision. Woodward gives him another £300m to spend this summer, and we still lag behind. What next? A new coach? Who doesn’t rate the squad? Who wants to bring in his own players? United need a director of football to oversee transfers, player development, hiring coaches, and to stop Woodward and Mourinho from wrecking the club.

    #1636926
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
    • :

    We have one more season of Sanchez and Matic @ the top of their game @hatters mate I fear.Lets just hope Jose goes nowhere near the likes of Bale and Willian.

    #1636929
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
    • :

    Its being reported: Lindelof out,Alderweireld in?!

    #1639124

    Blacky
    Participant
    • :

    I think we should dismiss the notion that finishing 2nd somehow constitutes us having had a good season.FFS even Dave Sexton managed to achieve the same thing way back in 1979/80 and ended up only 2 points off top spot,not the absolute chasm of a 19 point gap that we had this time.The football we played that season was still horrible and joyless with nothing much to celebrate and here we are again in a very similar situation with very little optimism that anything is going to fundamentally change under Mourinho no matter who we end up signing,simple as that.

    #1639137

    yorkshireman200
    Participant
    • :

    Wudturd is now on his 3rd manager in 5 years. Who can forget some if not most of his transfer dealings not the least the Fellaini and ADM debacles. Considering he was instrumental in the Glazer takeover and eh, lets put the flags out, he’s got the debt down to a very manageable 300m!! It’s about time this clown took a long hard look in the mirror.

    #1639144
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
    • :

    More like deep,long rough bummings @blacky mate,from the owners down to the match-going fans,lol.

    #1639179

    happyhurling
    Participant
    • :

    Why do the points behind City matter? Yes, United finished 19 points behind City. But what about everyone else?

    Spurs – 23 points behind City
    Liverpool – 25 points behind City
    Chelsea – 30 points behind City
    Arsenal – 37 points behind City

    #1639218
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    I agree with happyhurling to an extent. So let’s compare ourselves to those teams. Then compares ourselves to our European rivals. I’m assuming we don’t want to be one of the best in England, we want to once again become one of the best in Europe.

    As it stands, given Arsenal’s decline, we’re in the second tier along with Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea – and Chelsea is a bit of a special situation since clearly they have internal problems this season affecting their performance.

    #1639566

    Blacky
    Participant
    • :

    @happy – It matters because that is the benchmark for next season if City carry on in a similar vein,and that’s before they probably spend another 200m!.
    We were never truly in the race so finishing second this time is all about the revenue that it creates for the club,but there is no ‘glory’ attached to it.
    We are now a cannon fodder club,here to make up the numbers in the most important competitions and just wait for the inevitable elimination from them year after year.You only have to look at the last few years under three different managers for proof of that sad fact.

    #1639586
    redblood
    redblood
    Participant
    • :

    We surely are not looking @Arse are we?.They have been a joke for nearly 15 years! We finished a colossal 19 points behind the title-winners!

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