433 v 4231 – My Concerns

This topic contains 2 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Songman 3 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #1870699
    Rob Fort Worth TX
    Rob Fort Worth TX
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    Please bear with me here folks. You may wanna brew up first.

    My own teams throughout the years generally favoured a 4231 line-up. This formation gave me greater success and the players also were more comfortable with this set-up.

    Klopp also favoured this tactic for long stretches at Dortmund using a double pivot of Sahin/Gundogan and Bender then any combination of Reus, Mkhitaryan, Goetz, Kagawa, Lewandowski, Aubameyang etc. as the 7, 11, 10 and 9.

    All had defined roles which is why I and my players preferred this system. We all knew exactly players’ roles on and off the ball.

    I prefer this at Liverpool.

    433 has given us great success but I fear, as I’ve mentioned before on specific threads, that we have been and will get found out further using this approach.

    Now, that’s not to say Klopp hasn’t tweaked. Yes he has. He did it Saturday (thankfully!). On the hour we switched to a 4231. 6, 8 and 10 – Gini, Keita, Bobby respectively, 7 and 11 Minamino and Mane then Salah up top as the 9. Jones then came in for Bobby. Way, way better balance.

    Of course it all depends on the opposition. 433 is great against some teams but not great against others. Same with all formations. That’s what managers get paid to do, to put a team out there with what they think is the best set up that will bring them success.

    Please hear me out. I do not, for one second, disregard the success 433 has brought us in the last 15 months. Incredible. Absolutely brilliant.

    But, the concerns since February (and much of it could be mental btw so not dismissing that) aren’t exactly nebulous; they’re there and we’ve all seen it.

    Silver lining alert! I detect, tho, hopefully, a mini revolution at Liverpool with regards to personnel/formations. We could, going forward, see a lot more of the 4231 formation.

    Why I would prefer to see this happen a lot more going forward:

    An extra body in mid is GOLD. With 60-70 games in the official second Covid season could an extra man there could prove vital. If we do get Thiago we would have him, Mane, Bobby, Minamino, Hendo, Gini, Naby, Ox, Fabinho, Shaqiri (if we ever see him again), Jones, Milner all vying for the 6, 8, 10, 7 and 11 roles. In those roles we have Hendo, Milner and Fab who can play 6. All three with Thiago, Milner and Ox can play the 8. Shaq, Gini, Minamino, Naby and Ox can play the 10 also with Bobby and Jones. Then we have Minamino, Shaq, Mane, Mo, Milner, Gini, any of which can play 7 or 11. That leaves us the number 9 role. I would move Mo up top here permanently. I see his time as the right forward diminishing. Not saying he won’t play it much, likely he will, but over the last year I’ve seen his effectiveness change dramatically in some games with opposition working out a way to stop him playing. Origi can fit in as and where but not a starter.

    The above gives us massive flexibility, much like Klopp had at Dortmund with these 6 roles. He can also switch to a 433 as and when as he did at BVB on occasion.

    I think it’s harder for opposition teams to break down a 4231. I’ve been very concerned since February how easy it has been for teams to wade through our midfield and target our right side especially. 4231 would define a 6/8 on the side Gomez/Matip and Trent/Nico side (usually Hendo/Fabinho) and then Gini on the left. On too many an occasion our 433 has reminded me of Uncle Royston’s 352 and our centre backs getting badly exposed because our full backs – Jones/Nicol/Kvarme/Stig/Harkness got caught in possession and too far up then the likes of Redknapp, Barnes, Molby, Clough, Thomas etc. supporting could not recover quick enough. I saw it happening with us more this calendar year and again in that first half this past weekend. It bothers me.

    Not saying for one second that the 4231 would be the cure all but it certainly gives teams more solidity especially out of possession and that’s where we badly need to improve atm.

    Since the 1-0 win at Norwich in mid Feb we’ve played 16 games in all competitions. Won half, Drawn 3 and Lost 5. Just 3 clean sheets and 25 goals conceded. Teams cutting us open out of possession and Saturday’s opening half didn’t curtail my concern for the better.

    Also, and an important note. Switching to a more ‘prospect attractive’ formation such as a 4231 could prove incredibly vital for our longevity. We may have missed our on Werner and maybe one or two other top targets because they can’t see a way past the giant iron portcullis of Hendo, Gini, Fab, Mo, Bobby and Mane. Shaq can’t get in (being injured 99.9% of the time doesn’t help – he’s an out and out number 7), Origi struggled for identity in a 433 as did Lallana and Sturridge didn’t have the body to play 433. Even tho we play a fluid 433 it’s anything but flexible when it comes to players coming in both existing and possible new targets. This bothers me too. It doesn’t bode for a sustained period of success in my eyes. It may be paranoia on my behalf but I can’t shake it off. I also think players like Gomez and Ox will benefit greatly too from a ‘heavier’ midfield as they often look a little lost/unsure.

    Interesting times ahead and an area I’m gonna be keeping a close eye on.

    #1870708

    gingerlfc
    Participant
    • :

    I wouldn’t be reading too much in to stats or performances since mid Feb. We’d all but won the league by that stage. After lock down we needed 2 games to ensure the league so clearly the attitude/focus changed then.

    Also, my focus wouldn’t be on making it harder for opposition teams to break US down. Quite the reverse actually. I believe we should focusing more on how we break other teams down easier. Part of the answer to that could come from having more creativity in midfield and/or having better attacking options off the bench.

    #1871882

    Songman
    Participant
    • :

    Rob, 4231 is possibly being used in today’s game, with Minamino just behind Firmino, it was my favourite formation in the past due to it’s flexibility.

    Going forward Klopp might use it in certain games to surprise the opposition, or when the opposition is weak (i.e. we play more attackers), let’s wait and see

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