Dangerous Ground

This topic contains 16 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by GellerBing GellerBing 5 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #1714782
    Rob Fort Worth TX
    Rob Fort Worth TX
    Participant
    • :

    Apologies in advance for the long missive below and would welcome your thoughts and input on what’s going through my mind at the moment. Are you sitting comfortably?

    Completely get why Klopp fielded the team he did last night although in days gone by how devastated where we when we got knocked out of the FA and League Cups? I didn’t talk to anyone for days. It seems nobody bats an eye these days when we go out of domestic comps. I was brought up in an era where Liverpool went whole hog at every damn competition but times have changed and the Champions League now is what’s in its name, a league, as opposed to a knock out comp back in our heyday. That changes the dynamics of everything.

    So, we are out of the League Cup and FA Cup now and fans are seemingly breathing a sigh of relief, but I’m not. We needed a trophy (1 in 13 years may I remind you) and now every egg we have is now in one basket, domestically. It’s the league or nothing (altho we could go on a strong run in the CL) but I’m referring, again, to our domestic target(s).

    I had a strong sense of deja vu last night when my mind casted back to our 13/14 season. We went out of the League Cup at United, phew, no worries, everyone remarked, no biggie!

    Arsenal then stung us in the FA Cup (Ox scored that day), phew, no worries, we can concentrate now on the League. It’s all good! No biggie!

    I’m not going to remind anyone of how that season ended.

    This IS a different team completely I know with a manager of similar mindset in a way to Brendan – entertain but less so this season but obviously there’s way more in Klopp’s locker than Brendan’s. But that deja vu feeling was strong. I also think back to United (argh!). They managed League Cup and FA Cup wins when winning leagues. Hell, they even won the League and CL in one season! They went for everything.

    I know we are in a ‘team revolution’ and we are evolving but to see us just go out of domestic cups with a whimper and then win fuck all following, season after season gets old, very old.

    How can Klopp ensure we are successful this season? You can’t plan injuries (altho you can predict them with Matip, Lovren, Lallana and to some extent Henderson) so we need quality back up, not just back up, quality back up. We MUST get a couple of new faces in this month. Quality centre half (mentioned Cahill before and I’ll mention him again, top pro, good centre half, bags of experience, league and CL winner). We need a number 9. Cannot rely on Bobby for the next 4 months to grab every goal from that position. A top player who can come in and get 10 goals or so could get us over the line.

    But that’s the ‘physical’ side. The mental is just as important. Having quality back up will help keep us mentally fresh. On the flip side of the ‘mental coin’ is Klopp and co. keeping everyone super focused, not letting our first back to back loss streak affect us and winning at Brighton, ugly if needed, on Saturday. A loss against BHA could be the start of yet another miserable January in Klopp’s reign. His record for the month of January, as Liverpool manager, is P26, W8, D9, L9. It’s a pivotal month for me in a challenging team’s season.

    If we do fail this season then it’ll be down to a couple of things – taking just one point from six off City and not having the quality back-up in the key areas such as centre back and forward to push on.

    Let’s hope the last few days were a blip, something that needed to happened to catapult is to our only second trophy in 13 years and our first title in 29.

    #1714798

    NotoriousBingo
    Participant
    • :

    Do we really need a cup trophy Rob? Honestly..?

    Also losing out to our direct rivals like United or Arsenal in the cups is a bit different from losing out to Wolves with our b-c team. It doesn’t halt our momentum quite as much and with some of our lads getting their first rest for months. We needed to rotate.

    Especially when we face them again in a few days in the league with our strongest lineup possible. The lads will double their efforts to get the three points because that’s what they care about…

    I’m very happy that Klopp decided to field our b-teams in the cup and stick to his decision. Just focus on the Premier League and Champions League, they are the bread and butter of the club, money is worth more than the mickey mouse cup, I dare say money is also worth more than the FA-Cup these days unless you are guaranteed into the Champions League for winning it.

    If you had to choice between the FA-Cup winner this year and one of the top four clubs which one would you choose. The sad truth is that the cups have lost all meaning. Its a bigger achievement to finish in the top four than winning the cups.

    #1714818
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    Back in the day we went for every trophy.
    Back in the day we also played fewer games, games were less intense, and players would drink beer on the bus home from the games. Some would even drink before!
    Times have changed.

    It’s been a busy schedule I’m sure we will have earmarked that game to rest a few players, we did and it didn’t cost us any points in the league.

    The squad is a little thin, that’s all the more reason to play the second string in minor cup competitions.
    If we were nowhere near challenging for the league or CL, I would understand going for the cups but it would be silly to risk the big trophies by stretching our thin squad too far.

    When it comes to the club’s reputation, what do you think is more important, winning the FA cup or playing big games against top sides in the final stages of the CL? Even just being in the knockout stages of CL is bigger than winning the FA cup. It helps attract players, raises the club’s profile, brings a lot more money, etc.
    The FA cup gives fans a little something to celebrate but we shouldn’t be chasing that at the expense of the big competitions.

    #1714844
    AK
    AK
    Participant
    • :

    Once you are out it is easy to say we can focus on the league but the fact is winning is a habit. The game has changed a huge amount but i must admit one of my fondest memories as a LFC fan was 2001 Fa Cup. Hindsight is an amazing thing only time will tell how being knocked out of the cups will affect us.

    A side note in a ideal world our 2nd team would look a something like

    Mings
    Clyne Lovren Matip Moreno
    Hendo Milner Lalana
    Shaq Sturidge Jones

    But as Rob pointed out we have a number of Injury prone players who can not be relied on if everyone is fit we have a good squad but its very rare that everyone is fit!

    #1714854

    Songman
    Participant
    • :

    I really hate it when Liverpool are knocked out of any cup, like yesterday.

    But considering 3 of our Centre-Backs were missing, plus the fact that we need to focus on our league title challenge, we just have to forget about last night and move on

    #1714855

    gingerlfc
    Participant
    • :

    “Once you are out it is easy to say we can focus on the league but the fact is winning is a habit.“

    Plenty of people were saying before the game that focus must be the league and all our main men need to be rested for this game.

    #1714866
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    Winning isn’t a habit. The result of the last game doesn’t give you an edge in the next game.

    Previous results can affect players motivation, sure… but if you look at all the top teams who have a habit of winning, they all rest players during busy periods, especially in the minor cup competitions. Who’s to say that the defeat will not galvanise the players and make them better in the next game?

    I don’t think you can say losing that makes us more likely to lose the next one. However if we’d started with Salah, VVD, Robbo or Henderson then they’re more fatigued in the next league game, and that’s a certainty. Also if one of them gets injured we’re in big trouble.

    Resting players was the smart thing to do, and I’m not glad for the result but I’m glad we’re being managed in a competent way.

    #1714876
    Sanj1
    Sanj1
    Participant
    • :

    Rob, just realised i replied to your post from this thread on the Wolves thread. Cheers

    #1714908

    Mikus
    Participant
    • :

    Rob, a big concern I have is Klopp’s big game record. I list the following which won’t be popular but are facts:

    – Our results against the top six so far this season:
    W3, D3, L1

    – Our results vs the top six last season:
    W2, D4, L4

    – Klopp has lost his last six cup finals.

    – We have lost all of our CL away games so far this season.

    I think Klopp has struggled to find the right balance in these games. In recent years we were attacking because the attack was our best weapon. It reaped some good results at times, but less so in others and we obviously had the “losing 2-0 leads” problem. This season, with the defence addressed and very solid, Klopp is now over protecting us by playing lower energy football which has generally worked great against the lesser sides – but in the big games we’ve lost our frightening attacking edge and thus we’ve not delivered in those games. Klopp has got to turn this big game record around if we’re to bear fruit this season and he’s got to find our ruthless edge again.

    I hear what people are saying about prioritising the league, but if we were prioritising the league we should have put absolutely everything into that City game. A draw or win there, and I’d now say the league would be 80% ours. As things now stand, I’d say it’s now 50/50. A 4 point lead against this City team isn’t a big one. I still think it was outrageous that City seemed more motivated and seemed to want the win more in that game. I accept that the loss of Ox has been a problem, and Keita not being ready has been frustrating. But Fabinho & Shaqiri have shown their capability in recent months, though we should also be still looking to add to what we’ve got. In this game, winners are ruthless and we’ve got to find that ruthless edge that we know we’re capable of.

    #1714950
    red_lion
    red_lion
    Participant
    • :

    Spurs arguebly have a smaller squad than us and are still in 4 competitions. Winning trophies breeds confidence. If you look at Spurs development. You can see how they are improving. Our mentality is wrong and we certainly need to dip into the winter kitty. Forget about players returning. We need at least a CAM and a ST.

    #1714951
    GellerBing
    GellerBing
    Participant
    • :

    I’m with JC on this. Every great team in sports I know goes into a game and treats each game with a clean slate. I said on another thread that I find momentum as an abstract principle. 2 defeats in a row is a shame, but the defeat against Wolves wasn’t our first eleven, and I doubt they’d be phased about it. What will keep us going forward is how Klopp will maintain a healthy mentality for the players going into each league game. I’ll be worried if we drop points at Brighton, but until then we have nothing to panic about IMO.

    Like jc said, times have changed. Even City with the squad that they have, never managed to win the league and the FA cup at the same time. Granted they did win the League Cup in the seasons they won the PL, but they never went deep in any of their CL campaigns. Yes United managed to win League Cups, Champions League and FA Cups in the seasons they were crowned champions, but that was a decade ago now. There was so much more parity between the top four and the rest of the league back then, you cannot deny that the parity between the top 6 and the rest of the league has been reduced. In fact, none of the recent PL champs have done what United did a decade ago if I’m not mistaken, and this City team is even touted as one of the best the PL has ever seen.

    The fact is we just don’t have the squad depth to compete on all fronts at the highest level. We have a first eleven that can rival the very best of the world, and we need to keep them as fresh as possible and prioritize the biggest prize, especially when we have a genuine shot at winning them.

    #1714954

    redsforever
    Participant
    • :

    We’ve had our best ever start in the premier league and top of the table. We have the best squad in years. This is probably the best chance we got in 29 bloody years to finally win the big one.

    The problem is we’re up against the most expensive team ever asssembled, probably the best ever epl team which won with record points, goals scored, goal difference and god knows what other records they broke. So its gonna take something extra special to beat this city side to the title and therefore we gonna need all the advantages we can get including fixture congestions for our rivals.

    Going out of the fa cup early again is so disappointing but under the current circumstances klopp was absolutely right to put out that 2nd string team. If we are 4th and 10 points behind city i think klopp wouldve put out a strong team.

    #1714955
    threeps
    threeps
    Participant
    • :

    Good post reds completely agree. Think it sums up our situation perfectly and that we are in a unique position with a very good chance of winning the big one with an unbelievable team as our rivals. We need to use any advantage we can.

    #1715062

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    It is always disappointing losing any game, but I was less disappointed about this one, I was listening to a podcast the other day and they were saying that if we stayed in the FA Cup and CL then in April we would have had 10 games, one every 3 days for a month, we don’t have the squad to cope with that amount of games.

    #1715108
    Rob Fort Worth TX
    Rob Fort Worth TX
    Participant
    • :

    Geller, City got beat in the CL Semi’s 3 years ago by Madrid and they did get to the quarters last season(?).

    #1715124
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    PL and FA Cup doubles are not that rare not only have untied done that and the CL to boot but we have done it on several occaisions, different times yest but still only need to look at full squad depth. Do you need to win a cup ANY cup? IMHO yes…just like the spuds, you can play as well as you like but if it gets you nothing what does it matter, i hope you do win the PL this year but putting all eggs in one basket is silly…..

    #1715149
    GellerBing
    GellerBing
    Participant
    • :

    Rob they did get to the semis that year, but they did not win the league, and they weren’t close. Last year they had the league all but wrapped up when the CL came, but they still couldn’t get past the quarters, and they got knocked out by Wigan in the FA Cup.

    I’d like for us to go gung-ho in every competition, but we just don’t have the depth for it, thus we must be conservative. When we improve our squad in the coming transfer windows, I will then raise the bar accordingly and expect Liverpool to battle tooth and nail in every competition.

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