Does Hendo need to be the TOP 3 midfielders in the CL to not be average

This topic contains 871 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by  NotoriousBingo 3 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 12 posts - 861 through 872 (of 872 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1838982
    Davinci
    Davinci
    Participant
    • :

    Bingo //Mate, you are still not backing anything you say with anything at all… Its all your personal opinion based on zero evidence//
    So it’s just my personal opinion that he was never nominated for POTY before? And it’s just my opinion he was never nominated as our Player of the Season before? You Plum!

    Red Herring //Which is just another way of saying that it’s only the people who don’t understand the game so well that think he’s suddenly and miraculously improved this season after several years of mediocrity//
    So the people who didn’t rate him in the past were wrong. But when those same people rate him now, their opinion is valid? LOL…you’re funny

    JC, whether you like it or not, Hendo completed 14 league games last season yet we amassed a record 97 points. And as I keep saying, my focus is the league, not cup competitions. And yes, at that time, Hendo’s level was suspect. He has raised his game and everyone has noticed. If he had always played at his current level he wouldn’t have been so widely criticised for so long.

    It’s taken 9 seasons for him to get this kind of recognition and for some reason you think it makes up for all the other average seasons. I’m sorry, it doesn’t. As I said before, it’s like when an aging Gerrard wasn’t cutting it anymore and VA tried to make out that it proved he was justified in criticising him for all those years. It didn’t.

    The vast majority of Hendo’s 9 seasons have been unremarkable. He had a good 2013/14 and he’s having his best one now. What about the other 7?

    And yes, when people talk about a players ability, they tend to be talking about the players ability WITH the ball. Why? Because creation is harder than destruction and that is why those with good ability on the ball are called ‘gifted’. Our midfield is often classed as ‘workman like’ ie more graft than craft. The craft/creation has had to come from elsewhere in the team.

    JC, why wasn’t Hendo nominated for POTY in any previous season? Lol Think carefully…Peace

    #1839056
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    “why wasn’t Hendo nominated for POTY in any previous season? Lol Think carefully”

    POTY isn’t done by nomination.

    What is there to think about? The best league in the world, billions of pounds of talent, hundreds of the world’s best players, and there can be only one POTY each season. It’s harder to win POTY than it is to win a league title.

    It’s an exceptional achievement, I’m not going to hold it against him that he wasn’t in the running before.
    But it is, to some extent, a popularity contest.

    Let’s get pedantic. You said “if he plays more often than not”. And last season, he did play more often than not. He played 32/38 games, 1940/3420 minutes, and we challenged for the title. And we have again this season, with Henderson playing the vast majority of the time.

    I pay no mind to pundits, or what’s fashionable, when I watch football. Sometimes, if I’m watching at home, I’ll even turn the commentary off.

    My opinion, looking back on his career… he was a slow starter, first couple of seasons were unremarkable. But his attitude was spot on. Going season by season:

    He played excellently in 13/14. He followed that up in 14/15 where I think he was even better. A bad season for the club, but Henderson played admirably, was so reliable and consistent, and chalked up his highest tally – 6 goals and 9 assists in the league.
    Going by your criteria of what makes a good player, perhaps you might think this was his best season? 15 combined goals and assists is certainly above ‘average’.

    His best season, according to whoscored is, 16/17. When Klopp moved him to a deeper role, and he has chalked up some impressive stats. 84 passes, 6.9 long balls, and 5.4 combined tackles and interceptions, per game. These stats are some way above average.

    18/19, won the CL! One of our best in the knock out stages, and helped us to within one point of the league, playing a lot more often than not.

    19/20, let’s be real. We’ve won the league with plenty room to spare and Henderson has been arguably our most consistent performer, and is favourite for POTY.

    Never been the most popular player, until recently. But that’s by no means an average career if you look at it.

    #1839229

    NotoriousBingo
    Participant
    • :

    davinci… its just that this statement is so bad from you… You go on about all his bad seasons at the club but you can only mention the one good season you think he has produced. There is no evidence at all with that statement of yours… You are just talking out of your arse… It is my opinion that Henderson was a bad player because he has only been nominated for POTY once…. Like wow

    #1839242
    Davinci
    Davinci
    Participant
    • :

    JC //POTY isn’t done by nomination//

    Really?

    Need I say more?

    I doubt very much you have actually quoted me accurately, hence why you haven’t even pasted the whole sentence lol.

    Last season Hendo played in 32 games. Of that 32, he came on as sub in 11 of them. This means he started 21 games. Of the 21 he started, he was subbed in 6 of them and sent off in the other. So he started and finished 14 games out of 38. 2 games missed through injury. 2 games not even in the squad. 1 game on the bench all match.
    And yet we amassed 97 points.

    Whichever way you want to slice it, he simply wasn’t a key player in the league for us last season. Why is that so hard for you to admit? I have no problem admitting that since Fab got injured in November, Hendo has played better than I’ve ever seen him play before.

    It hasn’t been anything out of this world, simply cos he doesn’t have the skillset for that. But I think he has been able to play at the top of his own game for an extended period of time. Credit where it’s due. I hope he can maintain this level til the end of his career with us.

    I call things as I see them. When he wasn’t playing well, that’s what I said.
    Now that he is, I’ve given him his dues. Can’t say much fairer than that…Peace

    #1839247
    Davinci
    Davinci
    Participant
    • :

    Bingo //You go on about all his bad seasons at the club but you can only mention the one good season you think he has produced.//

    Correct. I can remember him playing well in one previous season – 2013/14. I’m sorry that I can’t give you more detail on the other ‘average’ seasons – they were pretty ‘forgettable’…Peace

    #1839266
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    POTY is all voted for by the players.

    They publish a shortlist of the top contenders, just to spin it out. But none of those guys are actually nominated. It’s fully democratic.

    The number of times I’ve seen you say “I hope he keeps this up” through gritted teeth, hahah.

    I think he’s found an extra bit of belief and confidence this year Dav. I’ll give you that. But for me, he’s been an important player for us for a while.

    #1839302

    Freebilli
    Participant
    • :

    I couple posters (JC and RedHerring) have recently praised Henderson for being ranked No. 1 in Europe by the CIES Football Observatory rankings for the past 3 months (7 Jan to 7 April).

    This is from their website:
    The CIES Football Observatory has conceived a unique approach to rate players on a match-by-match basis by taking into account the pitch production and efficiency at both individual and collective level (methodology). Using data from OptaPro, the values presented refer to the averages for matches played at big-5 league level over four different time periods: last week, last month, last three months and last six months. To be included in the rankings, a players must have been rated for a sufficient number of games.

    Could someone please explain to me what “taking into account the pitch production and efficiency at both individual and collective level (methodology)” means?

    Just looking at the data JH has the least no. of ranking games played (his last ranking being vs Norwich on 15Feb.) in the top 20 and the joint least ranking games played in the top 50 on the list – he didn’t actually play for over half of the time period in question.

    The point I’m making is not a criticism of JH in any way, he has real achievements in his career (captaining LFC to CL last season and this seasons PL when it eventually finishes),but trying to big him up on the basis of this CIES ranking actually does him and his real achievements a dis-service. What’s next – a nomination for March player of the month?

    I can’t wait to get down the pub (when they re-open) and have a good old football discussion about the CIES rankings..we talk of little else normally

    #1839337
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    Well Billi, if it’s that dull and meaningless, why spend time on the CIES website, researching all this?

    He’s number 1 in Europe the last 3 months on their algorithm. It is what it is. I don’t think anyone’s gone overboard about it.

    (methodology) is a link, you can click on if you want to know more about what it means.

    #1839353

    Freebilli
    Participant
    • :

    JC – I went on the CIES site because you wrote about and I have the time to look at stuff.

    I have had a look at the link and this is what is told me :

    This research note lays out the approach developed by the CIES Football Observatory research team to evaluate player performance. It outlines the methodological choices used in order to be able to compare footballers on an objective and reliable basis. Several stages are necessary to analyse the technical performance of players in a pertinent manner. Our starting point was to categorise technical gestures employed by players in six different areas of the game. These gestures have been selected and assembled in such a way that, when aggregated at team level, they positively correlate to the results. In order to gain even more relevance, the technical gestures carried out were analysed in the wider context of the rapport of collective strength between teams. It was also necessary to go beyond the technical aspects so as to highlight the players whose presence on the pitch allows the team to surpass itself. Finally, the transition from the evaluation of players by area of the game to an indicator of general strength has necessitated the establishment of methods of calculation that are applicable to the different existing player profiles without penalising any position or style of play.

    Having read the above, I’m as wise as when I started. Do the “technical gestures employed by players” involve 1, 2 or more fingers?

    JC – can you recommend an algorithm (or two) to explain it for me, nothing like throwing in an algorithm or two to enhance a football conversation.

    #1839394
    j c
    j c
    Participant
    • :

    Maybe not the most exciting thing in the world, but analytics is a big part of the game nowadays.

    https://instatsport.com/football
    “I analyse my performance on the pitch after every game. My statistics and playlists with my actions appear on inStat Scout very quickly. I like to watch their previous matches to fully understand how defenders will react to openings or certain types of dribbles – Antoine Griezmann”

    #1839479
    Red Herring
    Red Herring
    Participant
    • :

    Freebilli>> You stated that I praised Henderson for currently being ranked the best player in Europe via CIES analysis. Actually, I purposely didn’t praise him (my post pasted below), but merely put it out in order to promote debate.

    <Red Herring: <Of course, if you’re in the anti-Henderson lobby, then you’ll instantly dismiss this analysis proclaiming Henderson as currently the best player in Europe, but I just thought that I’d put it out there regardless.>>

    Does this analysis unequivocally make him the best player in Europe? No, not necessarily. Does this analysis seriously suggest that he is better then ‘average ability with zero leadership qualities’. The answer is clearly y…… Oh, just make up your own mind!

    And although we are on P44 of this thread, let’s not forget that, despite the actual thread title, since around P2, the issue that we are debating has clearly crystalised down to: ‘This house believes that Henderson is an average footballer with zero leadership qualities’.

    I’m more than happy to persist in debating this until the posters behind the motion admit that they are wrong. Although I know deep down that hell will freeze over first.

    #1839519

    NotoriousBingo
    Participant
    • :

    you know that has to be one of the worst arguments ever from you… You are basically saying that Henderson has been average in every season because you can only recognise this season as good… That statement says more about your ability to read and understand the game than anything about Henderson mate…

Viewing 12 posts - 861 through 872 (of 872 total)

You must be logged in to reply this topic.