Gaza conflict

This topic contains 167 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by steveosnakeeye steveosnakeeye 5 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 168 total)
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  • #1638071
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @Al the Gooner – The arabs did not accept the creation of Israel for obvious reasons. Western powers were seizing territory from arabs to give to foreigners (ie jews). Western redrawing of maps is the cause of many disputes and wars around the world, including Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

    The UN, Palestinians, Arabs and indeed Israel have all agreed on a 2 state solution ie the creation of a Palestinian state. Israel however has confusing policies. It opposed admission of a Palestine to the UN.

    The big problem for the Israelis (aside from borders and status of Jerusalem) is what they term security. If Palestine were to be a sovereign state and have all the rights associated with that, they could then have an army.

    The Israeli fear is it would be a haven for terrorists who could use it as a base for cross border attacks. A reasonable fear in my view but I don’t see the problem with limitations on military and having UN inspectors and security forces there for a transition period. We had no problem monitoring Germany’s military after WWII for the next 25 years.

    The Israli occupation of Palestine is the longest military occupation in history. I think Israel is playing the long game, making life tough for Palestinians and hoping they all slowly bugger off to other countries. It is afraid of a one state solution because different birth rates could see the arabs one day being the elected government of Israel. This is why they are seeking to constitutionally protect Israel by moving the goalpost to declare it a jewish state.

    #1638074
    Al The Gooner
    Al The Gooner
    Participant
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    Mac, are you still researching your explanation as to how Jews control the news we get?

    It seems to me you’re going about things in a very cockeyed way. Most people interested in a particular subject will do some research and then form an opinion. You seem to have formed an opinion and are now looking for facts to back it up. Surely you can think of at least a couple of examples, off the top of your head?

    As for Jerusalem, I’m glad that you feel both sides have a claim because, up until now, you’ve given the very opposite impression.

    The problem is that Jews have been stung by past experience of Muslims controlling Jerusalem. Most Jewish sites left over from ancient Israel have been destroyed or desecrated, not least building a mosque on the most sacred site in Judaism. True, the Arabs/Muslims weren’t the only ones guilty but the most recent time, that Jerusalem was under Islamic control, was not a good experience for the Jewish people and that’s still in living memory for many.

    Put yourself in their shoes for a second. Once the Palestinians have a state, it’s very possible that Hamas – or a similarly fanatical party – will be the party in power. Would you want to entrust your most sacred site to a party sworn to destroy your people?

    I think it’s perfectly understandable that they’d be reluctant to relinquish control again and the current situation seems the ideal one to me. Israel has actually handed control of the Temple Mount to the Islamic Waqf so, in essence, the part of Jerusalem that’s important to both sides is in the hands of the Muslims, but the Jews are able to keep a watchful eye and ensure they don’t destroy the last remaining remnants

    The part where the US will build their new embassy and, indeed, the part where the Israeli Knesset is, are both in West Jerusalem anyway.

    Your ‘dog’ interests me and brings us nicely back to your assertion/insinuation that Jew are controlling what we see and hear? You talk about hearing ‘the other side’. What is that other side, that isn’t already widely reported in the media?

    PS That was my exact point about Saudi. Not that they don’t report what’s going on in the Occupied Territories but that there is very strict control over what is and isn’t reported. For example, having lived there, I imagine you’re aware that the Saudi’s are permanent members of the top 10 list of human rights violators, yet the Jew-controlled media seems to focus far more on Israeli treatment of Palestinians.

    #1638082
    banjo_chuckers
    banjo_chuckers
    Participant
    • :

    Anybody who goes around killing other humans in the name of a non-existing deity or the ramblings of a 2/3/4000 year old book is a fuckwit….

    Here endeth the lesson…

    #1638086
    Al The Gooner
    Al The Gooner
    Participant
    • :

    Mac – Western powers were seizing territory from arabs to give to foreigners (ie jews).

    Do you actually know anything about this subject at all? Or are you simply making it up as you go along? Do yourself a favour and do some research on how big Palestine once was, who ‘owned’ it before 1948 and who those owners took it from.

    There is absolutely no evidence of a large Arab population living in what is now Israel and the OTs (that’s Occupied Territories, not Old Traffords) and it is well documented that the British (the previous owner/occupiers) allowed unchecked Arab immigration during the 30s, while turning many Jews away. Even Yasser Arafat, arguably the most famous ‘Palestinian’, was actually born in Cairo. Arabs only really showed an interest in Palestine once Jewish immigration began in earnest at the end of the 19th century.

    Israel however has confusing policies. It opposed admission of a Palestine to the UN.

    Israel’s stance is that until the Palestinians come back to the negotiating table, they haven’t shown that they’re responsible enough to run a country. Not saying I agree with that and the Israelis really don’t help themselves at times, but I do understand their stance. It would, however, take far more than just Israel to block the Palestinians joining the UN, especially as Arab and Muslim countries outnumber Israel by about 50-1.

    But was it not the fact that the Palestinians aren’t actually a country and therefore not eligible? They have been admitted as neutral observers, although I have no idea whether Israel voted for or against that.

    If Palestine were to be a sovereign state and have all the rights associated with that, they could then have an army.

    That would play perfectly into the Israeli right-wing’s hands. Hamas don’t wear uniforms and hide behind women and children. Armies can’t do that. If a Palestinian army attacked Israel, that would be a declaration of war and no one could argue against the IDF unleashing their full force – not even the bleeding heart liberals.

    The Israli occupation of Palestine is the longest military occupation in history.

    That really couldn’t be less true and if you think about it for a couple of seconds, I’m sure you’ll realise what a ridiculous statement that is. What you’re referring too is the current, legal definition of military occupation, which has only been in place since the early 20th century.

    You are, however, clearly demonstrating the sources you go to for your information, Mac. You say you want unbiased news yet everything you come out with seems to emanate from the Arab propaganda machine or neo-Nazi websites.

    #1638087
    Al The Gooner
    Al The Gooner
    Participant
    • :

    Preaching to the converted Banjo. Personally, I think that anyone who follows a religion is a couple of cards short of the full pack anyway, whether they kill for it or not, but I fully respect everyone’s right to believe whatever they believe.

    Unfortunately, when it comes to Jews and Arabs, there is no way to take religion out of the equation.

    #1638088
    banjo_chuckers
    banjo_chuckers
    Participant
    • :

    Not saying they can’t believe in it, just saying they should bloody well keep it to themsleves! 🙂

    #1638089
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Participant
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    I’m sorry to say Mac, but as a neutral observer…if this were a game of tennis then Al is 40-15 up and serving for the match.

    New balls please.

    #1638102
    banjo_chuckers
    banjo_chuckers
    Participant
    • :

    Goonie… I’m in the middle of a bit of a debate on another “chatroom” somewhere with a “believer”, who is in the process of proving to me there is a god. The whole concept does kinda fascinate me to a degree, trying to understand how rational people can believe in such an irrational notion.

    Bit like how people can support Arsenal… 🙂

    #1638134
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @Al the Gooner – Hope to post about jews and the media later. Its a big subject and I’m trying to cover all points without writing a book. The art of concise writing is not one of my strongpoints.

    Your concept of “owning” is something many around the world dispute and is the cause of many a conflict. The region was pretty much part of the Ottoman Empire for much of its post-crusader history. The British took it in WWI. For more than a thousand years (excluding the crusaders) it was pretty much under arab or muslim rule. But as I said before, pre-war history is irrelevant.

    How populated an area is has relatively little to do with it. Its not a valid argument to seize land. Ask Argentina! That said, there were more arabs there than jews. And given 711,000 out of around 900,000 Palestinians fled the area in the 48 war, were not talking about a handful here.

    Arafat being born in Cairo is damn closer than Ben Gurion born in Poland, Sharett in Ukraine or Golda Meir in Kiev, Begin in Russia, How many Israeli leaders, generals etc. came from abroad?

    Yes Israel argues that the Palestinians are not “responsible” but that argument doesn’t wash in the international community. They had no problem signing accords with Arafat so I don’t see how Abbas and the modern PLO can be considered any less responsible. Its just a Israeli delaying tactic while they push ahead with settlements and creating a de facto situation to remove items from negotiations eg Jerusalem.

    Israel has USA with its veto power so doesn’t care about UN or what the rest of the world thinks. The US has consistently vetoed resolutions against Israel.

    PS – I dont know why you think I get info from right wing sources. I deliberately avoid any source I suspect would be challenged by you and others as being right wing. The quote I gave to TMA from Arafat came from jewish website. If you want to do a Maddie McCann on me, I’ll be happy to quote sources for what I say on the understanding you and TMA do likewise.

    #1638136
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @banjo chuckers – We did the belief in God argument to death in a topic recently. The relevant point as far as Israel is concerned is whether a religion can have a claim to territory. Does a Roman Catholic have the right to live in Rome. Do pagans hold rights over Stonehenge?

    @Wonderfuel – Your refereeing and counting has always been dubious to say the least. Al’s argument is based on ancient history ….. a bit like Arsenals claim to being a top side. And as for TMA, have you learned nothing from the United pages?

    It aint just new balls you need, its a new brain !

    #1638138
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @banjo chuckers – If somebody could prove God then by definition is would cease to be a belief or a faith !

    #1638144
    Al The Gooner
    Al The Gooner
    Participant
    • :

    Haha, Banjo, trust me mate, I often wonder why I support Arsenal myself! My dad and grandad have much to answer for!

    I’ll be interested to hear how this guy proves God’s existence. To be fair, my own belief is that there probably is a god, of some description – it’s religion that I think is absolute bollocks. The three major monotheist religions all paint their great and good creator as a vengeful, violent, envious and unforgiving misogynist.

    WG, cheers mate but that’s much more a reflection of Mac’s game than my own – I’m not sure he’s even managed to hit the ball yet.

    #1638149
    banjo_chuckers
    banjo_chuckers
    Participant
    • :

    Very true Mac… but imposing those “beliefs” onto the “non-believers of those beliefs” by way of violence and genocide still makes them fuckwits.

    As for the “right” to live somewhere those “beliefs” may or may not have originated from, does anybody really own the land in the first place? Sure, “humans” have created a system whereby ownership is granted by pieces of paper, but that’s just pieces of paper…. (bad analogy I know, but I’m about to go into a meeting at work!)

    #1638151
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Participant
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    You cannot be serious?

    #1638158
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @banjo chuckers – Its not really owning the land. The government in effect owns all the land, as proved when they impose compulsory purchase or confiscation.

    You have rights and protections associated with the land as determined by the laws of the land.

    #1638161
    banjo_chuckers
    banjo_chuckers
    Participant
    • :

    Goonie… I’ll stick it up here when it comes (he’s been threatening something for several days now!)… quite looking forward to it myself.

    We’ve done the “teapot” theory do death and he’s current stance is claiming I need to prove the teapot doesn’t exist rather than he needs to prove it does…

    Off course, my comment on “proving nothing exists” by “examining the space between his ears for the existence of nothing” went down like a Kushner Middle East Peace Plan.

    #1638168
    banjo_chuckers
    banjo_chuckers
    Participant
    • :

    Mac… yes, all determined by pieces of paper and a big stick to enforce those pieces of paper…

    #1638170
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Wonderfuel Gas
    Participant
    • :

    Teapots are for Royalists.

    Oh sorry, wrong thread.

    #1638172
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @Al the Gooner – While I’m busy doing my jews in the media post, why don’t you present the legal case (preferrably bullet form) Israel has for territorial control beyond that agreed on in UN resolutions and peace agreements.

    The case should be based on current international principles, laws, conventions, resolutions etc. NOT what God told Abraham.

    #1638174
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    Teapots? Who’s a teapot?

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