September 11, 2019 at 11:34 am #1781873
@macguffin – Understood and they’re all good points – though I don’t think 10th place is unrealistic with the current playing squad if truth be told.
Agree completely about the DoF position – how the Glazers and Woodward refuse to bring one in remains a mind-boggling decision.September 11, 2019 at 11:36 am #1781874
@hookedveil – if Lingard is injured then that’s a positive outcome! Worried about AWB, Pogba and Martial though… Shaw isn’t a big miss either.September 11, 2019 at 12:11 pm #1781894
happy – I dont want this to become a debate, we don’t want to upset your amigo libanski not to mention N!xer but to answer your question, your assertion is false because:
1) The scouts didn’t “unearth” James, he was recommended to the club by Giggs. Did you know this? Do you dispute this?
2) The scouts haven’t unearthed a gem in decades, so your use of the word “another” is false, its spin.
3) James is not a gem, he can rightly be considered as a prospective gem just like that lump of coal may be considered a prospective diamond. Time will tell, it may very well turn into a diamond but like so many of our prospects it may remain a lump of coal.
4) I used the word star because that is what a gem is, its a rare and precious thing that has significant value. I asked you to define what you meant by gem, you ignored the question as you normally do when you have no answer.
5) If the scouts were uncovering gems at the pace you suggest then everything would be rosy, certainly with the scouting department. But that is not the case because you fibbed, you were spinning again.
You were doing what you always do, hyping somebody up and heaping praise well well before it is warranted. This inability of yours to wait is emotional incontinence, and we all know what can happen when you suffer from incontinence.
@libanski -hey he asked the question and I assume he wanted an answer. I just gave it to him 🙂September 11, 2019 at 12:14 pm #1781896
I think the match may surprise us. Leicester are a good team and may very well think we’re ripe for the taking. They won’t park the bus to the extent relegation teams do. It could well be an open game. I predict a draw, 2-2 would be my guess.September 11, 2019 at 12:56 pm #1781911
I reckon a few of those ‘injury doubts’ will manage to play. If all are out I hope Lindelof isn’t played at RB. Yes he has struggled a little this season but we need to build his partnership with Maguire. I’d call up either O’Connor or Williams to play full back with Fred coming in for Pogba alongside McTSeptember 11, 2019 at 1:20 pm #1781919
Mac – So Ryan Giggs called up Man Utd and said “hey you really need to buy Dan James”?
Really? Is that actually what happened? Isn’t it more likely that Man Utd called Giggs to ask his thoughts on their target? Even if it is the case, does it really matter? Our “scouting network” (perhaps inclusive of former players) got together for talks and as a result we ended up signing Dan James for pittance.
Again I’m not “heaping praise” on Dan James, show me where I am? I said he looks a great prospect. Do you know what prospect means?
You also might need to look up the word “another”. It doesn’t refer to a time period. So if our scouts unearthed a gem 20 years ago and then unearthed a gem 20 years later – it can be referred to as another gem!
Jesus, I thought you were the master of the English language…September 11, 2019 at 2:45 pm #1781955
Really? Is that actually what happened? @happyhurling – We dont know for sure who found James. You dont know. But we do know it was widely reported Giggs recommended him. Its unusual it should be reported, can’t think of it happening with another player. Does the club never phone people who know the player. Point is, its unsure, we dont know yet you give credit to the scouts without knowing.
And its not unusual somebody would suggest a player. Agents and players do it all the time as well as people with connections to the club or player.
Our “scouting network” (perhaps inclusive of former players) got together for talks and as a result we ended up signing Dan James for pittance. What everybody in the network got together. Jeez must have been a big room. You are once again making it all up. The procedure for signing players is documented (I posted links in another topic). Yes the chief scout would have had to have given his approval but thats another matter, you are talking of unearthing.
The scouting network normally refers to people under the direction and instructions of the club. It doesn’t include friends & contacts.
Again I’m not “heaping praise” on Dan James, show me where I am?
You called him a “gem”. Do you know what a gem is? That’s praise. If I called you a cretin would it not be fair to say I am heaping derision on you? Tell me, WHAT IS A GEM?
You also might need to look up the word “another”. It doesn’t refer to a time period. Haha and you call me pedantic! Yes it does. By implication and usage it means happened relatively soon after the previous occurence.
If you visit me and I ask “Would you like another cup of tea”. And you ask when was the last one and I reply “5 years ago”. Most sensible people would raise their eyebrows. You are just clutching at straws but the best way to end it is to ask you …….. how would you describe our scouting departments “unearthing of gems”……… Frequent, Occasional, Rare?
Jesus, I thought you were the master of the English language… No you didn’t, you’re just lying again. Jeez I must start your Pinnochio chart.
PS – Apologies to forum but happy will insist on flogging a dead horse.September 11, 2019 at 2:53 pm #1781957
Mac – If Thailand get’s wiped out by a Tsunami tonight it would be reported as “Another tsunami takes its toll on Thailand” wouldn’t it?
The last one was in 2001!
“Unearthing a little gem” means finding something really good that was a bit of a surprise. I’m not saying DJ is a star player (he’s not) but he’s a great prospect. A little gem infact, considering what we paid for him.
Right, i think that’s significantly bored the fuck out of everyone and repeated the same points 16 times. Cheers.September 11, 2019 at 3:45 pm #1781972
If we’re relying on penalties to win the match then we’re in trouble, neither Rashford nor Pogba would instill confidence in that regard. Perhaps Dan James should take them….. Having said that I think we have the potential to do well. Leicester will see us as being there for the taking but keeping Maddison quiet is key and making sure that a quick player is on Vardy, in other words not Young or Maguire. Maguire should be able to give Ole an insight into what Rodgers is doing with Leicester and how they might play and react in certain scenarios. It should give us the upper hand, we just need to be able to take advantage of it.September 11, 2019 at 6:28 pm #1782009
Mac-Give happy a break,will ya, dude? English is not his 1st language,hehehe!September 11, 2019 at 6:30 pm #1782010
killy-I went for a 2-1 but I wouldnt be shocked to lose this game tbh.September 11, 2019 at 11:32 pm #1782038
@Mac, well for me 42 is always the answer to any question! Joking aside, they’d be pretty close to a 5 as we went from being one of the best teams in the world to an inconsistent, dull mid-table team in record time. There’s always hope that someone, somewhere will eventually learn a lesson but I think the fact that we’re going into an home game against Leicester worried and/or without a clue how the match will go says it all. That’s simply the life of a mid-table team.September 12, 2019 at 6:44 am #1782040
@happyhurling – You missed the ” relatively soon” part of the definition. 20 years for a Tsunami in the same location is relatively soon as it was for a World War in Europe. 20 years for a salesman to make another sale is not relatively soon nor is it for a scouting department to unearth a gem.
At long last a definition of a gem from you. So basically anybody who performs better than mediocre is a gem, since by inference that is a surprise. Personally given the resources and cost of our scouting department I think they should be doing better than an armchair pundit would. And I think 4 games is a far too early to pass judgement. Will you use those same 4 games to pass judgement on our season.
Anyhow, I agree we should drop this but really happy if you didn’t raise silly points like what “another” means or have such a low standard for superlatives & praise then exchanges like this would be redundant.
@redblood – Yeah I know, his first language is dutch, he speaks it twice which is why its called ……. (you can work that one out).September 12, 2019 at 6:54 am #1782041
@roygbiv – Yes I picked up on the 42 reference but it’s a bit dated, doubt anybody without greyhair would.
The scouting department is an abject failure. Aside from the fact they don’t “unearth gems” they are responsible for unearthing the pile of shite we are desperately trying to get rid of and the main cause of our demise. When you consider they are also responsible for assessing if the mental & character attributes of potential signing is compatible with our expectations then it makes their performance all the worse.
We’d do as well just compiling a list of under 21 national players in various countries and doing online polls to find out which players are rated best. I’d love to know how much our scouting network costs and how much these scouts earn.September 12, 2019 at 7:15 am #1782045
i picked up on 42 and it shouldnt be only people with grey hair to get that reference, shameful if true!September 12, 2019 at 8:55 am #1782065
Q. In the last 6 years how many signings do you think were on the advice of our scouts as opposed to Ed being manipulated by super agents and Jose’s mates?
Personally, I’m not convinced that the scouts have been listened to in the slightest. Mendes, Raiola and opportunity have I suspect been largely responsible for the disjointed squad we have. Ed has had his pants pulled down time and again.
The scouts have been finding the players for the under 18’s and youth sides, Chong etc. My jury is still out as to their success in this area as they are just breaking through.September 12, 2019 at 10:06 am #1782088
@hookeddevil – Interesting question. My guess, based on piecing together various reports is, it works like this …….
If the club has a need for a position it informs agents (mailing list) and then reviews their offers. Conversely agents inform potential clubs if they have players looking for a move. Scouts may then be sent to matches to watch the player and report back.
Scouts send player reports to the club. The club has a “recruitment analyst” whose job it is to collate reports and provide “quantative and qualative” information into the system. I should imagine the club must have a player database.
The key people involved in recruitment are:
Matt Judge [head of corporate development] handles financial aspects like evaluation of player value and negotiations over fees and contract extensions. He is the person who considers the commercial implications of signings and retentions.
Jim Lawlor [chief analyst] assesses player suitability and team needs (I think). He is head of scouting so boss of Bout and Murtagh. [more clarification needed]
Marcel Bout [head of global scouting] he manages the scouting network (United has 58 scouts) and provides player assessments
John Murtagh [youth development chief] provides information on youth player development.
Ed Woodward [ceo] has final say and determines budgets and spending.
Ole [manager] can suggest players (target list) and is asked to endorse/veto proposed signing. I don’t think managers today have the same powers as SAF where they decide who to sign, how much etc.
Scouts will have contacts in their region who they look to for information about players (that goes into a club scouting database) or kept on a watch list by the scout. I suspect scouts spend less time watching players than before and more time cultivating relationships with clubs, agents and reporting duties.
Bottom line is, scouts dont scout like before and agents sell their players more. Internet, video etc, mean players can be monitored with less need for scouts and there are information services (eg stats, media reports) that cover players of all age in all leagues.I think fans are misguided living in the past in what they think scouts actually do.
PS – The reason they may be more active with under 18 and youth is those player may not yet have an agent and money (fee) is not so much a factor in those players.September 12, 2019 at 10:14 am #1782089
Just a thought. How many players in the squad who have not come through youth can be considered prospects, young players we’ve signed for relative low fees from other clubs who are “ones for the future” and who we are taking a punt on.
Only Dalot and James fit the bill I think. What’s the point in scouts finding gems if there’s no space in the squad for them.September 12, 2019 at 10:23 am #1782096
Bit of a change of subject, but is Fred still alive?September 12, 2019 at 10:29 am #1782102
Irrespective of the scouting and purchasing system work – it’s evident that, before the last transfer window, it wasn’t working whatsoever. We were overpaying for players who didn’t suit our style or the club’s mental requirements. We purchased older players for high fees rather than invested in younger players.
In my opinion, we need to attack the signing of players (going to ignore the scouting part since, as MacGuffin noted, the dynamic has changed and is not clear) in the following way:
We should prioritize and can fork out large amounts on first team players for a position that will be strengthened heavily through the signing (for example, how AWB and maguire were signed this year). Players can also a bit on the older side but we should not aim for anyone over 27 or so.
We should aim at spending lower amounts on relatively unknown but potentially good players for the future (Dan James being a great example). The age should be relatively young so that we will either be able to give them time to develop or, should they not manage to make it in our team, we can still sell them on for a profit after 3 to 4 years (with current inflation taken into account).
We should aim at signing as many high-level 16, 17 or 18 year olds as possible in the same vein as we have been attempting to do over the last few seasons: signing a group of these players will cost us less than making one medium-sized transfer and, even if they don’t make the grade, will still most likely make us a profit after a few years. We should add in future transfer clauses to get a % of their next transfer.
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