Martial wants to leave

This topic contains 97 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by  Ackb050 5 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 98 total)
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  • #1648356
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @theMartial Art – Don’t be a dickhead. I said it’s an indicator not it’s proof. And an indicator is not an infallible universal truth. It’s an indication of probability. You’re one of the statisticians here. Compare the price/quality ratio of players over the years and tell me if better players cost more money.

    If it doesn’t then why spend more buying players and conversely, why charge more for some players when we sell them?

    #1648358
    theMartial Art
    theMartial Art
    Spectator
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    @macguffin – Don’t be a dickhead. Off course, money is an indicator of quality & potential. But that’s not what you said. Money is the best indicator of quality & potential. Can you spot the difference? We paid a lot of money for Martial when he was 18/19. How does your definition apply to him?

    #1648361
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @theMartial Art – OKay so you want to continue being the dickhead. You agree money is an indicator but you dispute it is the best indicator. Fair enough, give me a better indicator and your reasons.

    Yes we paid top dollar for Martial and if he goes we’ll no doubt get a pretty penny for him. Conversely we got the likes of Darmian, Rojo for relative peanuts, they were pants and we’ll get next to nothing for them. Once again you talk as if I said it’s a cast iron guarantee of quality. I didn’t. It’s like anything in life, more often than not you get what you pay for. Not always, more often than not.

    #1648372
    theMartial Art
    theMartial Art
    Spectator
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    @macguffin – OKay so you want to continue being the dickhead. As I said, I agree players transfer money is one indicator of their quality and potential. We paid top dollar for Rooney, Van Nisteroy and Rio and they worth every money. On the other hand, we got Evra and Vidic for cheap and they were two much-loved defensive mainstays at Utd for years. Two all time United greats without doubt. Same with Ronaldo. Lets also not forget the foundation of Fergies success were the product of the youth team.

    Spending lots of money on everyone and everything doesn’t necessarily bring results on the field. £75m Lukaku must be 75m times the player Rashford is, right? Pogba guarantees at least 15 goals a season at £90m, surely? Tottenham are being left behind by not buying anyone, aren’t they? Throwing money around is not the solution to our current ills because, even if we broke the bank to invest big money on players on insane wages, it would not guarantee us a seat alongside Europe’s heavyweights in the Champions League. Mourinhos spending could easily pass £500m this summer but seems its not solving our problems.

    What does it take for Utd to unearth a footballing genius like Ronaldo? Is it really difficult for the club of Utd stature for spotting talent? That’s what Utd should do and Mourinho is not the answer for that. For clubs who want a continental Fat Sam and a couple of trophies he is ideal, clubs who have long-term visions know to look elsewhere.

    #1648388

    mufc
    Participant
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    False flag, Martial has been posting most of the day 🙂

    #1648394
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @theMartial Art – Let’s get this straight. I said fees are the best indicator – you disagreed it was the best. I asked you to name a better indicator – you did not respond.

    You are arguing against claims I never made. I never said (a) fees are the only indicator (b) high fees guarantee success (c) low fee preclude success.

    I agree throwing money at a problem is not automatically the solution HOWEVER the more you spend the more LIKELY it is you will have the team quality needed for success.

    You are the dickhead because you are not giving a counter for the claim I made but are giving counters for claims I never made !!!

    That said, I’m a dickhead for talking with you. One topic everybody here agrees on is it’s pointless !

    #1648416
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
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    @theMartial Art. Usually I actively ignore your posts because I’m not sure if you are a troll or if you’re just a bit silly but your post licking Klopp’s bollocks did it for me.

    Firstly, Klopp has been in his job for a year longer than Mourinho and has won nothing in his tenure. Secondly, football is about scoring more goals than the opposition and therefore winning more points, it isn’t about scoring as many goals as possible. Liverpool scored 135 goals last season and won nothing – that proves that Klopp is a great attacking coach but clearly he’s a rubbish football manager.

    Please do not pollute this page with silly comparisons between Klopp and Mourinho. They are not cut from the same cloth.

    Liverpool haven’t won the league for 3 decades, their standards are lower than ours. They’ve just finished 4th and here we see Klopp enjoying his summer with all and sundry praising him for a job well done. If Klopp had just finished 4th in his third season with us I am certain you would be calling for his head. You are a troll or you are silly, simple as that.

    #1648436
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
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    @hatters – You can’t put Lpool not winning the league for 3 decades down to Klopp. As for us having higher standards, maybe we have a higher bank balance but not sure we should talk too loudly about our standards after Moyes, Fellaini etc. Even LvG and JM were not lured away from their clubs, they were taken off the dole queue !!!

    PS – Maybe I misread your post. You meant expectations rather than standards. Fair point but I seem to recall folk on here praising LvG after we finished 4th having improved on Moyes.

    #1648437

    Scholsey
    Participant
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    Hatters, don’t you believe the Liverpool job is harder than the United job? Rivalry aside I think he’s been excellent.

    I would prefer Klopp over Mourinho if both were unemployed and never managed over biggest rival.

    #1648443
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
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    @macguffin. Fair point. You can substitute the word “standards” for “expectations” in my previous post.

    @scholesy. The Liverpool job is not harder than the Manchester United job for the very reason above in my view. Our fans place more pressure on the manager and the results. The incumbent manager at Manchester United also has to deal with the lurking shadow of Sir Alex Ferguson. My feeling is that Liverpool fans are rather satisfied at the moment despite the fact that they won nothing and lost their 7th final in a row – they celebrate failure.

    Like I said before, Klopp is a great attacking coach but he is a weak football manager. Incidentally, Klopp’s great strength is one of Mourinho’s great weaknesses however in my view Mourinho is a more complete football manager than Klopp. If only Mourinho could hire Klopp as his assistant to replace Rui Faria then we might be onto something hahaha.

    #1648444
    theMartial Art
    theMartial Art
    Spectator
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    @hatters – Do I really compared Klopp and Mourinho? Nope. Klopp has flaws in his management style. He must shore up their defence simply not good enough Lovren is an accident waiting to happen as well as their dodgy keeper. Also they need strengthening their midfield Milner the guy runs around like bull in a china shop fouling all over the pitch giving away free kicks. They also need new attacking players who do they use to replace the front 3 if they get injured? Ings is shocking and Solanke not even close. The bench is poor very poor.

    However, you are silly if you don’t see his qualities as a manager. His crazy brand of attacking football is breathtaking. He has reached the CL final and the result would have been different had Salah not injured. Mourinho knocked out of the CL with a pathetic and disgraceful performance. Klopp finished in top 4 two years running. He has spent less money than Mourinho. He was forced to sell his best player in Coutinho. He signed some good players for reasonable price (Mane, Salah, etc). Its refreshing to see him put his faith on a 18 year old boy in the CL final. Mourinho would have played someone out of position (remember Darmain as LB?). As @Mac pointed out, Liverpool lack of success over the past 3 decades has nothing to do with Klopp. Klopp would probably have done a better job than Mourinho at Utd given the resources that we have.

    Mourinho has been a short term fix for a long time now. Why should he bother nurturing youth players, when its inevitable that another manager will reap the rewards of this, because he will have gone off to his next project/fallen out with the fans and chairman? Mourinho can’t develop players and doesn’t seem to want to try, he just buys the finished article no matter the cost and makes them play a very negative brand of football. That is his approach to football management and it’s why he only goes to clubs with a massive budget. Very one dimensional. I would of reluctantly took Mourinho’s negative tactics and boring football if it meant winning major titles. But if he’s not winning the big prizes whats the point? And i dont count the League Cup & Europa League as big prizes. Sorry

    Finally, i’m neither troll nor silly.

    #1648526
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
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    @theMartial Art. I must be crazy to be debating football with you. You’ve painted the failure of Klopp as success and then made a ridiculous statement that Salah would have won Liverpool the Champions League – that statement alone has reminded me not to debate football matters with you. Salah or no Salah, Klopp’s Blind faith in rubbish goalkeepers like Karius and Mignolet has cost them dearly. He is not ruthless enough which is exactly why he’s a weak football manager in comparison to the Mourinho’s and Guardiola’s of this world.

    I will not bother actually building a proper counter argument to that post – I disagree with you. Simple as that.

    #1648533

    Scholsey
    Participant
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    Hatters it’s harder because Liverpool can’t just go out and spend £90m on Pogba because he won’t go there at this moment in time. We still attract better players, have greater spending power and bring in greater revenue.

    Also our expectations have dropped since the SAF era, several on here think we are doing ok.

    #1648534
    theMartial Art
    theMartial Art
    Spectator
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    @hattersYou’ve painted the failure of Klopp as success and then made a ridiculous statement that Salah would have won Liverpool the Champions League – that statement alone has reminded me not to debate football matters with you.

    I stand by what I said. Salah’s injury has a major impact on the outcome of the final result. Unreal how much the Salah injury changed things. Liverpool’s presence on the right dissipated, and their press wasn’t as aggressive either. Klopp turned to Lallana to replace Salah after the injury and the rest is history.

    He is not ruthless enough which is exactly why he’s a weak football manager in comparison to the Mourinho’s and Guardiola’s of this world.

    LOLololol he was ruthless enough to get rid of the likes of Mamadou Sakho, Lucas Leiva, Balotelli, Benteke, Joe Allen, Jordon Ibe, Kolo Toure and many others. There are many players in our squad who look like deadwood and need to be shipped out. Mourinho is such a ruthless manager who seems to be happy to keep players who are not even playing.

    #1648546
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
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    @theMartial Art. I disagree with you. Let’s leave it at that. By the way, when you write things like “LOLololol” it makes people take you less seriously (ie. it is the behaviour of a troll).

    @scholesy. We certainly do have greater spending power than Liverpool but with that power comes great responsibility and expectation. You are correct that our expectations dropped somewhat because of LvG and Moyes but at the end of the day the typical Manchester United fan expects us to win the league next season or it’s “Mourinho out” time. The time given to Mourinho thus far has been justified by the fact that he had to rebuild the squad pretty much from scratch besides the goalkeeping department. The bar for him was to win us the league in 3 years. Mourinho is subjected to more criticism and abuse after 2 years than Klopp is being subjected to after 3 years because their fans have set the bar as “do your best to compete and get us in the top 4 because we know your resources are limited”.

    In my view, Klopp’s job is easier because of the fact that he doesn’t have the money to spend and therefore his KPIs are lower. Additionally, Klopp’s deal at Liverpool was extended to 6 years with him having won nothing for the club, this again proves that the bar is lower at Liverpool.

    #1648559

    Scholsey
    Participant
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    I don’t think he’s built the squad when we still have Valencia, Jones, Smalling, Young playing in our first team. Midfield hasn’t performed and money invested hasn’t given us a decent return.

    Mourinho has been subjected to more abuse not because of the league position but the shite football we have had to watch.

    KPI for most our managers now is top four / Champions League or sacked. Moyes and LGV both got sacked for this reason. Mourinho managed it via the Europa after a poor first season in league.

    Mourinho has under achieved with poor football spending around £250m (not including this window) imho whilst Klopp has achieved beyond expectations whilst balancing the books.

    #1648564
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
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    @scholesy. I don’t think Mourinho has fully rebuilt the squad yet either, the defence is still rubbish personnel-wise. Again, my point is that his failure here will likely get him sacked at the end of the season (or at least the fans will lose patience). Similarly, the brand of football will also get him sacked if it continues.

    Mourinho’s grace period is clearly much shorter.

    Meanwhile Klopp has had 3 years to buy a proper GK and yet he persists with shite players in possibly the most crucial position in the team – to me this is gross negligence and a sign of his bad judgment.

    Let me put it this way: when Mourinho was appointed most fans (including myself) expected him to 1) rebuild the squad, 2) entertain the fans (or at least improve on the 3 shots on goal per game LvG was torturing us with), 3) develop young players, and 4) win trophies. All of these to be done within 3 years.

    In my opinion, Liverpool fans expect points 1, 2, and 3 but they see point 4 as a bonus and they also were happy for the club to give him a 6 year deal before he had even ticked any of the boxes he was tasked with.

    Mourinho’s job is more difficult. That’s why it pays more and demands more.

    #1648577
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    Hatters,

    “@scholesy. We certainly do have greater spending power than Liverpool but with that power comes great responsibility and expectation.”

    are we still talking united or spideman! 🙂

    #1648587
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @hatters

    JM job was made easier in his first season because he was following LvG’s boring football and finishing 5th. It should not have been considered a “hard job” to improve on LvG. Yet he failed by finishing 6th. and the football was not much of an improvement if any. He was fortunate in that UEFA rules gave him a backdoor into the CL. But for that he may have lost his job like Moyes & LvG.

    You talk of fan expectations but as I recall you and others were dumbing down expectations for JM in his first season talking of what a “massive job” it was following LvG. Imagine he’d had followed Fergie instead of Moyes. He had a free ride from the club, press, players and fans his first season. Compare that to opposition Moyes faced. Its easier to rebuild a side from nothing. He didn’t have opposition from veteran players like Rio. He didn’t have opposition to bringing in his own staff.

    And this season, he’s had it easy in that he needed only to improve on his piss poor 6th place to be considered a success, improvement, heading in the right direction. And in terms of style, he hardly set a high bar last season so style improvement should not have been a big ask.

    His team rebuilding has hardly been a success. It was not a “massive job” to clear deadwood and improve on a defence of Young, Valencia, Jones, Smalling. Is it a massive job to make something out of young players like Depay, Rashford, Martial even Shaw. Is it a massive job to get more out of stars like Pogba, Sanchez even Matic.

    Is it a massive job to get the Old Trafford crowd buzzing. Is it a massive job to give United players the confidence and swagger.

    You make mountains out of the pressure at United but he’s had a honeymoon. Imagine the pressure on managers at relegation sides with no stars and bugger all money.

    Fans and boards are often not unrealistic. Liverpool fans didn’t expect to win the title and neither did United fans. They expect improvement in line with the available resources, no more.

    Klopp has taken Liverpool from challenging for a Europa spot to challenging for a CL spot. Liverpool are 5-1 second favorites for the PL next season. United are 7-1 third favorites.

    Tell me, given the size, history, resources and wealth of both clubs is it a harder job to get United to be second favorites for the league than Liverpool?

    #1648683
    hatters
    hatters
    Participant
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    @macguffin. You’ve explained the different pressures around the Liverpool vs Manchester United jobs but for me the crucial difference between the two clubs is the timeframes within which the incumbent managers are expected to reach the league title milestone. It’s fair enough that the expectation level was low in the year after LvG but to say that Mourinho was dismal on league position is fair enough if qualified (ie. we threw in the towel in the last month of the season to focus on winning the Europa League). Main thing is Klopp is not under real pressure to win the league and doesn’t appear to have any hard deadlines on when it should be done either whereas Mourinho has a deadline of 3 years and is largely perceived to have already failed at Manchester United because he didn’t win it within his “usual” 2 years. Even an opposition fan (nine nine nine) mentioned the pressure of expectation from fans as being problematic in the other thread.

    As for betting odds. I just don’t take them seriously. My expectations are not aligned with betting odds for example. Betting companies exploit sentiment to make as much money as possible. A mate of mine is a bookie in Australia and his company cleaned up on the France vs Australia game by offering good odds to patriotic Aussies.

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