Paradise Papers

This topic contains 110 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by steveosnakeeye steveosnakeeye 6 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #1554644
    Jay belfast
    Jay belfast
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    • :

    These tax havens and avoiders, highlighted by the Paradise Papers and other leaks, has to be the target for the next governments to attack.

    On panorama last night it was sickening what some people get away with including apple paying an average of 5% tax.

    Unfortunately the uk is incredibly complicit in seeing these tax haven regions continue to operate.

    I hope the naming and shaming continues over the next few days. As was said on the program, every time you hear a school or hospital closing etc we have to realise these tax dodgers are a direct cause. Close the loopholes!

    The difference between rich and poor around the world and this type of behaviour is going to lead to huge demonstrations sooner or later, surely the next big civil rights movement?!

    #1554670
    liquidator
    liquidator
    Participant
    • :

    I certainly agree that massively successful and profitable corporations should have these loop holes closed, and they should be made to pay a reasonable amount of tax, preferably in the jurisdiction where they made said profits, but if not there, then somewhere. However, the stuff about wealthy individuals using entirely legitimate and legal tax havens is a total non story for me. If it in not illegal, then why should they not do it? If you do not want them doing it, change the law. Everyone who pays into a pension or an ISA avoids tax. I do not know one person who refuses to invest in pensions or ISAs on the grounds that they feel it deprives HMRC of revenue, so complaining the wealthy also do it legally, albeit on a larger scale, seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

    #1554685

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Liquidator – Completely agree, if you don’t want this to happen change the laws. To put it into perspective they gave some figures from the HMRC report this morning and the amount of tax they fail to get is around 35bn, of this 5bn is down to tax avoidance and 6bn is down to the self assessment process being too complex, there was a further 1.7bn from tax exclusions such as ISA’s and Pensions. As you say if the governments leave legitimate means for these people/organisations to pay less tax then they will. Let’s not also forget, when it comes to the wealthy most of these processes will be going on without the knowledge of the individuals it will all be carried out by their financial advisors etc.

    #1554691
    liquidator
    liquidator
    Participant
    • :

    Paxman – Three times in less than a week – I’m feeling feint! Interesting stats by the way.

    #1554704
    D1rtyH4rry
    D1rtyH4rry
    Participant
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    There is only one politician in this country interested in addressing this issue, and he doesn’t get much love on these boards.

    #1554799
    Jay belfast
    Jay belfast
    Participant
    • :

    I also agree it’s much to do with the law and what people are “allowed” to get away with however many skate very close to the edge. For example what Lewis Hamilton done was very close to the wire in terms of legal. He claimed back the vat on his private jet saying it was for business use but he has used it often for private purposes. Lawyers now involved.

    What others do is give their money away to funds/trusts in tax havens. The trust/fund then hires the same individuals as advisors to the fund and these advisors then decide how the money is spent. 3 guesses who benefits from all the purchases. Someone who does that is definitely guilty of tax evasion (illegal) IMO and it is not simply just tax avoidance (legal).

    Investing in companies which the individual knows from the offset is going to lose money (because that is it’s sole purpose to avoid tax) again is not simply tax avoidance.

    Comparing these types of arrangements to someone choosing to invest in an ISA or pension I think vastly underestimates the devious nature of some of these schemes. The problem as well is these tax havens provide complete secrecy as part of their service to hide their dealings for their clients for them to avoid tax.

    #1554802
    liquidator
    liquidator
    Participant
    • :

    You might be right Harry, but certainly as far as I am concerned, he comes with a lot of unwanted baggage. I also see he is demanding people apologise for investing in tax havens. I wonder if he has ever put any money in ISAs or pensions……………?

    #1554848
    liquidator
    liquidator
    Participant
    • :

    I accept many offshore vehicles are the result of creative accounting or whatever, but again if it is legal, why not? I would have no concerns should this or any future Government outlaw the more creative versions, and as I have said would positively encourage them to do so on a corporate basis. However, the new puritans seem to be trying to create a pervasive atmosphere of immorality around people who have nothing to be ashamed of, as they have stayed within the confines of the present law. Also, whether by some clever offshore trust or an ISA the result is the same – HMRC is denied tax revenue, so until all these self righteous lefties all sell their ISAs and re-invest in the taxable equivalents, so more hospitals and schools can be built, I will be taking their opinions with a pinch of salt, and personally will be utterly rejecting any shroud of wrong-doing and suspicion they attempt to create from the supposedly moral high ground they thing they have created.

    #1554878
    Jay belfast
    Jay belfast
    Participant
    • :

    You really think someone stashing their funds off shore to hide it from tax authorties to then pay it back to themselves is the same as someone investing in an isa?? Really? The amounts involved here alone make this a ridiculous comparison.

    #1554885

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Jay – What I didn’t realise until this morning is these tax havens don’t provide complete secrecy and HMRC do have the right to demand to audit these places within the Caymans or any of the other havens, I also thought these places were locked away but apparently not.

    #1554929
    Dandy
    Dandy
    Participant
    • :

    The very attitude that if it’s legal, it’s okay is part of the problem. What about what’s morally the right thing to do. If Lewis Hamilton claimed VAT on a purchase claiming it was for business use only and HMRC can prove otherwise, they will and he’ll be paying back anything he’s claimed in error plus penalties and interest I suspect.

    The wealthiest will continue to find any way they can to avoid tax and it will always hit the headlines because of the amounts involved. There are also many unscrupulous accountants whose sole purpose is to look for loopholes.

    #1554945
    liquidator
    liquidator
    Participant
    • :

    People put money in ISAs to shelter the returns from tax, and then withdraw it tax free at some point, maybe as income in the future, so yes, that is the same thing. I accept the scale is on a different level, but each one is about avoiding paying tax, apparently legitimately. If Lewis Hamilton is found to have used his Jet for non business purposes, then I guess he will have to pay the tax, and maybe he should have declared this, in which case, it wasn’t legitimate, and he should be punished. However, that is not about investing money which is the main thrust of the disclosures and the one comparable to other legitimate use of tax shelters.

    #1554948
    Jay belfast
    Jay belfast
    Participant
    • :

    not in a million years are they the same lol

    yes they both want to save money but one is being deceptive and sneaky on purpose whereas the other is being open and transparent.

    Lewis hamilton should definitely be punished there’s no maybe about it, there is concrete evidence he uses the private jet for personal use. If he doesnt get charged should I expect the vat man to refund the tax I paid on my car?! Of course not.

    I agree it’s the governments job to close these loop holes down but lets be realistic someone funding a trust in bermuda, then hiring themselves as advisors, then advising the trust to buy themselves luxury yachts is not acting honestly or morally. It’s tax evasion not tax avoidance.

    #1554951
    Jay belfast
    Jay belfast
    Participant
    • :

    pax these companies are paid to hide this money from the tax authorities. Auditing them would be an absolute nightmare that hmrc would not have the man power for. On top of that they probably are borderline legal or certainly would be a full legal fight so they might not be able to reclaim any lost tax at the end of it anyway. On top of all that they need to figure out who to audit and have some reason to do it and again this income is deceptively hidden to avoid hmrc getting suspicious.

    Plus it looks like the UK is virtually complicit in the whole setup anyway. It’s disgusting if you ask me.

    #1555152

    HK Blue
    Participant
    • :

    I think there is an argument here that the UK tax regime is too complicated, and tax rates too punative. Tax avoidance / evasion is more appealing if you are going to take 50% (for illustration, not sure what the exact amount would be) off me vs say 15 or 20%.

    Let’s be honest, if say it’s the figures here that are causing the outrage rather than the act itself. Who wouldn’t manage their finances in the most tax efficient way? I recently move tax residency and timed this to optimise the tax reliefs I would receive in both locations (ie to reduce my tax bill). Sadly i did not evade / avoid anywhere near enough for anyone to get angry 🙂

    #1555308
    Jay belfast
    Jay belfast
    Participant
    • :

    HK yes the figures are important because it shows the vast amount of money the british people and economy are being cheated out of. Changing residency to avoid tax is not a problem, it is open and honest and you have to pass certain tests to be able to qualify.

    However what some of these guys are doing is a million percent more deceitful and under hand, as an example from today’s news:

    “In 2000, SAM Mouldings bought land from Stormont’s Department of Enterprise for £280,000. The company built their business on the site. By 2014, the property, with its factory and offices, was valued on its balance sheet at £4m.
    But the following year, SAM Mouldings gave the multi-million pound property away for just one pound to what the company described as an ‘unconnected third party’. The beneficiary was a company in Mauritius.
    Documents seen by the Nolan Show reveal that the McCreas had control of the Mauritian company – they had given the multi-million pound property to themselves in all but name. The couple were listed as ‘investment advisors’ to the company – but the leaked files suggest they were doing much more than just advising.
    After the Antrim property SAM Mouldings operated from was given to the McCreas’ company in Mauritius, SAM took on a £270,000 annual rent bill. This rent was sent through various intermediaries – and ended up in the McCreas’ Mauritian company – where the income tax rate is just 3%. Under this system, SAM Mouldings paid £270,000 annual rent to the Mauritian firm but Sam McCrea received a £200,000 loan from the firm. As a loan, it was not liable for tax.”

    I hope they get done for evasion!

    Anyone who doesn’t think this is a problem and/or is acceptable behaviour should not and cannot ever complain about the growing inequality within this country between rich and poor. If average Joe averages a tax rate between 20-40% and the top earners are paying less then the gap will just get wider and wider and wider. When the tax revenues start to fall due to behaviour like this what does HMRC/government do to all the tax rates Joe public cant avoid like VAT and income tax? So who picks up the bill for these things?

    You guys might be happy paying someone else’s tab….I’m not!

    #1555404

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Jay – To be honest I wonder why some should be paying 40% tax, why should people be penalised for working hard and getting to a decent salary, I have never understood why this difference exists.

    #1555422
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    Admittedly I haven’t followed it closely nor do I know much about it all but it seems that for the most part its legal and something all the wealthy do. In fact, the average Joe with savings in any kind of investment fund probably has part of the investment portfolio offshore.

    There are of course some who are commiting a crime, and they should be handled accordingly. The question is why do we allow it. Either prohibit it or change the laws to make investments in the UK the same as offshore.

    For me though it raises a couple of points.

    1] The focus is on how rich people are. The rich brag about it almost. Just read about somebody in USA claiming more wealth just to make the Forbes list. Trump inflated his wealth to move up the rich list.

    BUT there is no information (to my knowledge) on taxes paid. There are no kudos, no knighthoods for paying a lot of taxes. I’m sure there could and should be ways of giving kudos to those who pay a lot of taxes. Yes there are secrecy laws but perhaps we should examine this more. Should not the public know who pays taxes and who uses every trick in the book not to. The same applies to companies.

    2] Does the public have financial information about the MPs who make the laws. How do we know the MPs aren’t making laws which benefit them. Is there conflict of interest?

    #1555429

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Mac – If we have that freedom of information it needs to across the board, why should we see what say Simon Cowell pays in tax, and therefore what he earns and him not be able to see the same about us (not that he would want to) but you can’t make one rule for some and another for everyone else. Big companies are a different matter and I believe this information is available.

    #1555444
    MacGuffin
    MacGuffin
    Participant
    • :

    @Paxman – I’m not sure everything does need to be across the board at all levels. Life isn’t quite like that. The wealthy have lot more advantages over the average man, is it wrong to suggest that with the added advantage there should come added responsibilities. We do tax them at a different rate so that’s already a difference.

    It could be over a certain level its public, either income and tax or just tax.

    And it could be voluntary eg tick this box if you agree to making the information public.

    Alternatively there could be awards or some form of public recognition for those who pay high taxes eg invited to gala event or get a blue peter badge. If they avoid taxes and give millions to charity they get a knighthood. If they paid those millions to the government they get bugger all recognition.

    I’m sure if you gave me a MP salary and a team of assistants I could come up with a few proposals to provide inducements to pay tax.

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