Peoples vote looking more and more likely

This topic contains 679 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Laughing Lenny 4 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 680 total)
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  • #1704288

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    At the end of the day I thnik most MP’s realise that Brexit is going to be bad for the country and a peoples vote would rally all the remainers that didn’t vote last time because they thought it was a done deal and we would stay. Also there is the Irish border problem, people saying ‘Just walk away without a deal’ don’t seem to get that we would still be required to have a border between ourselves and the EU, so we either annex NI, of have a hard border in Ireland, which has been predicted to return the troubles to Ireland. Both look pretty un-workable.

    #1704298
    Alfie07
    Alfie07
    Participant
    • :

    Not sure it is. It is obviously the narrative at the moment, but it would ruin any political party that organises a second referendum (let’s be honest here as that is what it is). A vote on a deal or no deal would be a people’s vote, but that is not want the remainers want. They want deal or remain.

    As to a hard border – why do we actually need a hard border? Surely it would be up to us to decide how we enforce border control. If the EU wants a hard border then that is up to them, but I cannot see why we have to have one if we don’t want one. We can choose not to control the border and lose tax income, or we can choose to check one lorry in ten – for example – or we can have a hard border, but surely the whole idea of leaving the EU was to make our own decisions.

    #1704312

    nine nine nine
    Moderator
    • :

    I don’t think anyone can predict anything on Brexit currently it’s a b*****s muddle but seemingly on the back of Grieves amendment a no deal looks unlikely.

    #1704317
    Alfie07
    Alfie07
    Participant
    • :

    Isn’t the Grieves amendment non-binding? The government can simply ignore it, from what I hear.

    They will have to decide what comes first – the will of the people or the will of parliament.

    #1704321

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    From what I have just been reading about yesterdays going ons and what was one the news last night, if May’s deal gets voted down then decisions on where we go from there will be a parliment decision, this means a Peoples vote can be or4ganised without it being down to a particular political party a few political correspondents think that this is the most likely outcome as there is a majority of MP’s that favour this option. No Brexit would be one of the options for the Peoples vote. Don’t shoot me down, this is just what I have read.

    #1704331

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Although to be fair they did also say that these votes might have made May’s chances of getting her deal over the line as many of the Brexiteers might well decide that this deal might be their only chance of getting any kind of Brexit so might fall into line.

    #1704358
    AK
    AK
    Participant
    • :

    The irony is that a vote is now somehow being sold as undemocratic.

    #1704360
    Alfie07
    Alfie07
    Participant
    • :

    Not the vote, the refusal to accept the decision of the first vote.

    #1704385
    AK
    AK
    Participant
    • :

    Even if the first vote was based upon misinformation & lies?
    Don`t people have a right to change their minds based on the deal on the table?
    And lets say the people vote for the deal so be it!

    #1704419

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    AK – That is spot on, it is like if someone ask if you wanted to go on holiday with them and you said yes, if they then came back and said how about 2 weeks in Syria? I think you might change your mind.

    I think the result of the referendum has been accepted and the government is doing it’s best to get a deal that will have the smallest negative, going on this deal the ecfonomy is only predicted to drop by 3%, where as a no deal is predicted 9.8%.

    So I am with you a vote when people have so much more information, realise where the options might take us with the biggest decision this country is making since joining the EU then maybe a more informed vote would be best, and how it can be undemocratic is beyond me. If more of the country still want to leave we will leave, surely that is the whole nub of this decision.

    #1704436
    Alfie07
    Alfie07
    Participant
    • :

    AK – of course people have the right to change their mind. But what happens if people change their minds again, or if they change their mind after the next general election on who should form a government? Do we keep allowing votes to be rerun if somebody changes their mind?

    I would wager that yourself and Paxman, who are calling for a second referendum – not a peoples vote – voted remain in the first vote and will do so again. I would also wager that those outside this forum who are calling for a second referendum also voted remain in the first vote and will do so again.

    Most people calling for a second referendum are not doing so for democracy, but in the hope that the result changes. To bang on about misinformation and lies seems a tad hypercritical given the misinformation and lies surrounding the call for a second referendum.

    #1704480

    nine nine nine
    Moderator
    • :

    Well said Alfie even though I was for Remain.

    #1704483

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Alfie – I will admit I was for remain, but I also know some people that voted leave that want another vote because had they had all the information we have now they would have voted remain, there is only a couple admittedly. Yes many of them maybe remain but what we are asking for is a vote when we have a much clearer picture of what the future will be. You can label us all you want, but we can also label you as a leaver that doesn’t want a people vote because you know damn well the more people in this country want to remain in the EU and this will be shown shold the vote go ahead.

    As far as other Elections, yes people can change their minds but that is why we have them every 5 years at the most usually less. With this being a more important issue than electing the PM don’t you think we need to get it right now? As far as the border question goes. Yes we DO HAVE to have a border, you cannot have no border with and area in a different customs union, I can’t believe people still don’t understand this.

    #1704486
    Alfie07
    Alfie07
    Participant
    • :

    Incorrect Paxman, you can have no border with an area in a different customs union. You just have to offer the same to everyone – under WTO rules. Which means we would have to offer zero tariff access to everyone in the WTO. It’s the EU which requires a hard border, not the UK. The UK can decide what it wants, but there are consequences.

    Also we have fixed term governments (five years) so election’s are set (unless agreed by parliament under specific conditions – one is a two thirds majority). But by the same token that people can change their minds at the next general election, people can wait ten years and have another referendum on the EU membership.

    #1704506
    AK
    AK
    Participant
    • :

    A few points from me:

    Firstly misinformation and lies should be the slogan of most politicians. Both sides in this debate have been at it some would argue one side more than the other.

    Secondly the reason why it is so important IMO to have a 2nd vote is schengen & the single currency because if in years to come we decide to rejoin the EU it will a 100% not be on the terms we currently have. So in essence once we leave it would be very stupid to go back with our tail between our legs which i doubt would happen simply out of pride if nothing else.

    Thirdly this idea that we could get a better deal if we send some “better negotiators” to the EU is utter nonsense as our current deal of being in the EU is better than anyone else. So we are hardly going to leave & still get a better deal.

    Fourthly & probably most importantly this idea that we will take back control of our borders is ironically something we could currently do but we choose not to!

    This whole debacle has reaffirmed my thoughts that we have people in power who care more about their own careers & agendas then the national interest. And on that note a no deal brexit could well open some lucrative business opportunities for myself.

    …….. so no deal brexit it is then.

    #1704508
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    this has been a very good bebate, and at the risk of getting pilliared i watched a couple of youtube videos of Pat Condell after one of LL’s posts and you know what this guy is very knowledgable and succinct speaker, thats not to say he is correct, but for me it validated the reasons i voted leave and have not changed

    yes, lots of disinformation from BOTH sides but i guarantee if the vote had gone the other way there wouldnt be this constant barage of continuing disinformation from news and remainers….its beyond contempt for me

    #1704509
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    all that has happened was ordained 2 years ago when we voted leave, let the gov carry on with the poisoned chalice, take political benefit for 2 years from those that are not directly involoved then say no to WHATEVER deal they are able to get…this is a sad endictment

    #1704510

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Alfie – So that solves the problem then, the EU requires a hard border, so we can force them to put it between southern and Northern Ireland, then when the troubles start it won’t our fault 🙂 How come all the other countries in the WTO have hard borders between them?

    #1704511

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    Steveo – I am not putting your post down but what disinformation has come from news and remainers, the majority of disinformation I have seen around social media has come from committed leavers.

    #1704513

    Paxman
    Participant
    • :

    AK – Ironcally even though immigration to the uk from EU nationals has dropped dramatically in the last 2 years, the overall immigration level has remained the same 🙂

    Also a report was issued saying how the border controls would actually make it easier for illegal immigrants to enter the country.

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