January 11, 2019 at 11:50 am #1715660
@Paxman – I haven’t looked in the dictionary (that would be too easy) so this is my usage of the terms.
The EU worker from Poland, Romania etc. – some may be expats, those who intend to return, just as I was an expat when I worked in Germany for 5 years. But those who want citzenship for themselves and their children in the expectation their children will be British, are immigrants. It comes down to intention.
Expats required visas for a fixed period of time. Immigrants have permanent residency, a path to citizenship and the right to citizenship for their children. The EU citizens (most) working in UK mostly want to become British and never leave. The Brits working in Saudi (for example) some who have been there for 20 years have no intention of their daughters becoming Saudi, marrying Saudis and the family tree being transplanted to the desert!
Look, these are fairly well established terms in both law and common usage. Do we really need to rewrite the English language to suit your agenda?January 11, 2019 at 11:52 am #1715665
@Paxman – The referendum on joining the EU was held in 1975, 2 years after we joined! If you want to use that as a precedent, fair enough, you can have your referendum in 2021 🙂
PS – And the nation didn’t get a second bite of the cherry a couple of years after that one did they.January 11, 2019 at 11:56 am #1715667
Blimey to many mince pies paxo?
lets ee if we cannot help you out of your stodgy obtuse ways for today at least.
Original referendum, vote cast 1975 over 40 years ago (this was neevr said to be a once in a lifetime/generation referendum) was also the third time we had applied but the frogs kept blocking us 🙂
40+ years later a second referendum, this one (stay with me now) to LEAVE.
a NEW vote on a NEW question. with the powers that be stating whatever the result THIS vote is a once in a lifetime/Generation vote so had it been REMAIN there would be no other vote and…this is the bit you struggle with, if its is to LEAVE then there would be no other vote, not in a lifetime/generation and certainly not 2 years later.
Now if all that isnt clear ot you the other factor you may have to acknowledge is, unless you have a time machine that i am not aware of then with time being linear and moving forwards in vote done 2 years ago and being said to be the only one we will have in a lifetime/generation will indeed for the time going forward and not include the PAST (where that vote was also NOT said to be a once in a lifetime/generation).
and finally me auld pedegree chum, i think in your vast overinflated opinion of your self and the obtuse nature that eeks out of every pore, what is a “lifetime” who’s definiaition, but even then i think the term was used loosley rather than as a defacto measurment of time and thus is interchangeable with “generation”
Hilarious non reply from Mr Obtuse back at his know nothing know it all best. Hilarious 🙂January 11, 2019 at 1:41 pm #1715712
Two very distinctly different Referendums Paxman the first was whether we should join the European Economic Community the second was whether we should remain in the European Union which bears no resemblance to the original European Economic Community that people voted to stay in back in 1973 by a significant margin.January 11, 2019 at 1:41 pm #1715713
Mac – No they didn’t have a second bite of the cherry as it was a very one sided vote, not surprising really as we needed to join as our economy was dying on it arse, we had relied for years on trading with the empire, and what with India gaining independance and us losing most of our empire we were going under as a country and desperately needed the trade benefit that joining the EU gave us. A bit like now really 🙂January 11, 2019 at 2:22 pm #1715723
obtuse as ever as i see….
let me equally as obtuse with this post as you have been
We desperatly need the the trade with EU as we are losing our empire, when we no longer have an empire to lose. Hilarious 🙂
and of course, no mention of any other country or trading bloc we COULD do better business with under our own guidance eh ? 😉
or the fact the as 999 said its a different beast we we have little to no control over our own affairs that benefitsw the euro project and nations far more than ourselves?
carry tiger you are doing a stirling job as ever….if you are not to busy of course 🙂January 11, 2019 at 2:32 pm #1715728
As remainer and someone who still doesn’t really see the true benefit of leaving (born late 80s don’t know any different. With that being said if there is to be a 2nd vote. It will have to be for Mays deal or no deal. I don’t see how remain can be an option at the moment. We don’t have enough time.January 11, 2019 at 2:41 pm #1715733
Steveo – I said we were losing our empire, as in when we joined, at that time we were under our own guidance and could do business with who we liked and our economy was dying we needed to join the EU to get the better trade within the EU, which basically saved our economy. Do a little research we were collapsing under our own guidance getting our own trade deals, what’s to say it will be any different now?January 11, 2019 at 2:42 pm #1715735
What people are calling the first referendum in 1975 was NOT whether to join. As I said we joined in 1973 without a referendum. The 75 referendum was on whether to remain in the then Common Market. And when the Common Market morphed into the EU, once again we were not asked.
Yes in the 70s our economy was struggling but that was not down to not being in the EU. It was our failure to modernise and our industry suffering from lack of investment after the war.
And what does the independance of commonwealth nations have to do with it. How did that prevent trade. We never colonised France or Germany yet free (hahahaha) trade with them was supposed to herald an economic boom.
The EU has never been free trade. It has been set up to benefit French agriculture and German industry with the UK being shafted all the way. And the result is there are next to no big British companies or key industries any more.
If the EU has been so great howcome ;rior to the referendum we were not living the life of Riley and are in such a state that leaving will mean doom. Its like a macro version of the poverty trap. So desperate for and dependent on those minimum wages that you can’t afford to look for a better job !January 11, 2019 at 2:56 pm #1715738
“The United Kingdom made its first application to join in 1961. It was quickly apparent that there was a danger of political isolation within Western Europe, Commonwealth states were rushing to do deals with the new bloc, and it had American support. This application was vetoed by the French Government in 1963 with a second application vetoed by the French again in 1967. It was only in 1969 that the green light was given to negotiations for British membership. The United Kingdom joined the European Economic Community (as it then was) on 1 January 1973 with Denmark and Ireland. This proved controversial at the time. The Labour party initially sought renegotiation of membership. This was toned down to requiring a referendum on whether the United Kingdom should remain part of the Community. This referendum was duly held in 1975 with a 67% vote in favour of continued membership. ”January 11, 2019 at 5:03 pm #1715769
There is a well documented and recognisable demographic split between the young and the old on this most contentious of issues.
I believe it may have less to do with economics and more to do with many younger voters feeling more European and open to what they see as the greater diversity of being part of a larger entity, while the older generation tend to retain a more ‘distinctly British’ stance.January 11, 2019 at 5:26 pm #1715770
Ash mate, i watch QT every week and can assure you the audience is not reflective of the UK, not even close. The show was in London, a remain city and clearly the audience reflective that. The panel were primarily remainers 3 to 2. Fiona Bruce clearly has a remain standpoint that was obvious from one show. just because momentum supporters and a bunch of students whoop and holler everytime they they hear the dogwhistle it means very little. The silent majority remain just that.January 11, 2019 at 9:07 pm #1715778
Too true Dandy! QT is obviously well past its sell-by date and should have been scrapped years ago. The BBC has become little more than a useful politically correct tool for the establishment. It does everything to keep the peasants wide-eyed and passive, and the likes of Jimmy Savile under the radar. It’s corrupt to the core and in a better world should have been wound up years ago. They’ve now wheeled out Fiona Bruce who granted, is better looking than Dimbleby but is another remainer. It’s the last throw of the dice for QT. The program goes nowhere and makes me sick.
The students that you refer to have unfortunately been brainwashed and buggered with political correctness throughout their education and have simply no idea how to seriously grapple with the simple things in life, let alone the fundamental issue of democracy. They really don’t have the slightest clue. How could they? Here’s the latest video from St Patrick. It’s only a week old and he tackles some relevant issues that may help explain why:
And as for the silent majority that could not even be bothered to vote for our country’s destiny one way or the other, why on earth should they even have a say in this matter now? It’s the 17.4 million people that voted to leave who do!
Lenny.January 11, 2019 at 10:04 pm #1715781
Dandy, take the chip off your shoulder mate. QT travels the whole of the UK, and is open to everyone. Its pretty sad to dismiss what is a regular platform for ordinary people to voice their opinions just because the opinions expressed don’t sit well with you. And btw, you have no idea what the political make up of the audience is mate!
Lenny, ideally this forum would be utilised for the purpose of rational discussion. Sorry to break it to you sir, but you are not Nigel Farage or Pat Whateverhisnameis, and your endless party political broadcasts are tiresome and juvenile. You never appear to consider the views of others. You just preach. Boring.January 12, 2019 at 3:38 am #1715786
I thought there was a mini “scandal” about QT audience being biased some while back. I did a quick google and seems it was a headline allegation ….
And this article is on-topic …… somebody in the audience said ……
“With respect, I think the BBC have been biased against Brexit. I think that during the referendum campaign what you often did was you got someone very intelligent to speak on behalf of Remain, and you managed to get someone less intelligent to speak on behalf of Leave.”
I have no idea if the allegation is true or not but have little trust in any media that relies on ratings, there is a financial incentive to be like a reality show where it is staged to wind up the viewer.
PS – Recently I started watching The Apprentice (UK) … old ones as I’m not familiar with TV shows so when I hear about one I just check it out. It is amazing how these numpties bullshit about their cv, squabble, backstab and struggle to do tasks a boy scout could do. But that”s the formula, get the audience tugging at their hair saying “I can do better” like having the Bimbo on the quiz show.
I understand the mechanics of the media, in fact were I a producer there’s a few posters here I’d love to put in the front row after filling them up with cheap plonk:)January 12, 2019 at 8:21 am #1715789
Pretty dismissive Ash but I could point you to dozens of articles questioning the impartiality of the QT audience let alone hundreds of articles questioning the neutrality of the BBC and staff.
I don’t have any chip Ash, I’m just not naïve. There is an England outside London Ash,you should get out a bit more lol visit god’s own we’ve even get electricity now.January 12, 2019 at 9:14 am #1715806
Latest poll indicates if it was put to the people on the current negotiated deal or no deal the negotiated deal would win.January 12, 2019 at 9:16 am #1715807
‘..what you often did was you got someone very intelligent to speak on behalf of Remain, and you managed to get someone less intelligent to speak on behalf of Leave..’
Hahaha. Brilliant 🙂
Dandy, just because those people with similar views to yourself (part of the 17.4 I’m guessing) also feel threatened by hearing the views of UK citizens, it doesn’t invalidate it my friend.
There’s a really obvious, blatant reality atm that you just don’t want to acknowledge because it doesn’t suit your agenda, and that’s a shameful, selfish stance on your part.
The overwhelming majority of people did NOT vote for what is about to happen. The people were sold a fluffy dream that has now been proved to be BS. So, the majority want a further voice at this moment, when it’s most critical.
So, who are you or anyone else to dictate how often the people are heard? Who are you to decree that democracy in the form of a voice for the people is a one time thing?
The simple reality is that this moment in UK history is unprecedented, and as such every ordinary person deserves to be consulted, now, when we are at the edge of the cliff.January 12, 2019 at 10:56 am #1715828
@ashcfc – Despite the lengthy debate you have not maintain the myth. Namely …
The Leavers voted that way ONLY because they believed what the politicians told them and the politicians lied. This either (a) invalidates their vote (b) means there should be a second vote and those people are sure to change their vote.
The problem with that is:
– Many knew politicians on both sides spins and based their vote on personal experiences and reliable fact finding.
– Politicians both side tell porkies (eg there has not been a disaster) so its quite possible Remainers may change their vote also.
I’m sure there must be polls out there to see if any evidence of a shift. And there must be polls about the desirability of a second referendum.
Personally, the hardline behaviour of EU politicians with threats, bullying and trying to squeeze the last pound out of us confirms one of my reasons for wanting the leave. Those people don’t care about us, only what they can get out of us.
we are at the edge of the cliff.
Still doom mongering I see.January 12, 2019 at 11:22 am #1715832
Germany apparantly heading for a financial crash?
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