Useless statistic?

This topic contains 41 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by The Oracle The Oracle 2 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #1957407
    the specialone
    the specialone
    Participant
    • :

    Muffler – You’re free to see it differently.But I genuinely think he’s done an absolutely outstanding job here.For you or anyone else to realise that like I said you have to do a really deeper and honest analysis with every single game.Don’t just look at the end of the season table and say oh it’s not good enough.We all know it’s not good enough but we’ve changed two managers in the process already because it hasn’t been good enough but we’ve just gone in further decline.

    You can’t just expect Arteta to take out a magic wand and fix the mess here.Because you have to understand NO MANAGER IN THE WORLD will be able to fix the mess unless he’s given resources.Again by that I don’t mean funds for just two-three signings.
    There needs to be wholesale changes made.We already know some players are definitely leaving.They definitely need to be replaced and on top of that we need to add more quality too.Lastly,we can’t rely on young and raw talent.ESR and Saka?Keep them as back up don’t RELY on them.

    I really am a big fan of Arteta and I think he has special knowledge about the game and have given clear evidences to back that up in my previous posts.He’s young, animated and exactly what we need.

    The problem is I just don’t think there’s any intent from the kronkes.Intent being the key word.Thhey’ll make funds available to sign two or three players for Arsenal fans can wet themselves over and get the “trust” back.But any person in their right mind knows this squad needs wholesale changes.

    I still can’t believe we finished where we did with some of the players we played.Holding,mari,chambers and academy players.I think in some ways Arteta is a victim of his own success.If he hasn’t miraculously win the FA cup, he wouldn’t have set the bar a bit high.I think he made an average defence perform so so well with his tactical knowledge of the game and the organisation he implemented.

    #1957473

    muffler_1
    Participant
    • :

    I get it TSO you look at stats and all that and thats fine but I dont watch football for that reason.

    I watch football because its my passion and because I love Arsenal. I want to see the same passion from them which means fighting for every inch on the pitch to score goals. It does not matter If we play great or bad If we win for me. That is what is about winning games and titles.

    Thats what i base my reasoning on which means that sometimes it just does not make sense to everybody.

    I honestly dont care If the expected goals is higher than the other team If we still loose the game. I dont care if Elneny has a passing rate of 95% If all of them are backwards. I dont care if Xhaka makes 5 great tackles when he hits someone in the face and gets sent off. Its the end result that I care about as fan. I get that stats are useful to disect a game and to show that things are not bad but for me all that matters is If we win or loose and thats where my reasoning comes from.

    Of course i see If a player does well Even If we loose but its of little importance in the bigger picture for me.

    I respect that you debate from a different viewpoint but I just want to say where Im coming from right or wrong thats how i think.

    #1957528
    AndyC
    AndyC
    Participant
    • : AndyC

    Im with TSO on most of what he says, I support the notion that Arteta has done a bloody good job, but then I don’t just look at everything with a very simplistic view. I will take into account everything, not just the final table and certainly not just the result of a game. For me to judge someone like that and a team like that is naive, it only serves to suit an agenda and that agenda is quite clearly that people just dislike Arteta. I’ve said time and time again its not about Arteta its about any manager we have you could have Sean Dyche in our position now and I will still be throwing out the same support. As the large majority of problems we have had and a large majority of why we finished where we are well outside of a managers control.

    Yet there is always a few who ignore that information, evidence, call it what you like, its gets ignored and that is not a true reflection of the big picture.

    There is a mountain of context that a few choose not too take on board, context that ultimately can change everything. luckily the people in charge do look at that context and do have much better understanding.

    I understand some of you don’t like certain tactics, and its great that you can point to them after a game once the dust has settled. hindsight is a grand thing.

    There is no evidence that an experienced manager would do better, absolutely none. You can point to Everton, hired the other manager everyone wanted. even with a better squad and more investment has finished behind the rookie with bang average squad. Or look at Spurs, you want us to change managers at the slightest error yet spurs have done this and won absolutely nothing for 30+ years! they have had 16 managers in a time we have had 3. I use them as an example as they are like us. I could use Chelsea but that wouldn’t be any sort of comparison they buy elite players year in year out and invest small fortunes every season.

    I don’t like stats, and thats more individual stats, they can be used to suit almost any agenda. Pepe vs Saka for example, Pepe in numbers has contributed 5 fold what Saka has yet one gets slated often and the other praised.
    so the stat of us being the 3rd best since Christmas does have a lot of weight, if you factor in what happened before that up turn. We had bad apples leaking stories and causing trouble, we forced them out, we also had no creativity until Boxing Day (ESR was injured start of season) he came in we also signed ode, oh look the form got better I guess its because we started creating more and scoring more.
    we had a defensive crisis at beginning of season and was forced to use Mustafi and Kola, now who is to say that their trouble making didn’t get onto the field of play?
    I mean if you can leak stories and try to destabilise a squad then you are capable of that. The whole Ozil saga, all these things weigh heavy on a team and manager trying to find and fix issues.
    there is more I could go use to support the manager.

    I’ve Said this many times without any answers. Who replaces Arteta?will that person give you instant success? if not why?
    will you support the manager after 18 months when all the deadwood is still not gone and we havent strengthened as we should? if you think hiring a new manager means 2 or 3 steps forward then you are very very wrong. any new manager is going to asses the squad 4-6 months, they will then need to sell players they don’t want, that could take any amount of time but lest go with 6 months to cover 2 windows, they then need the players they want, thats another 6 months, now in that time its going to be rocky as it ALWAYS is at a club.
    then you have their style, if its different to now and what Arteta is wanting then you can add another 6 months to get that messaging across.
    So thats 2yrs to just be in a stable position and truly start to play from what that manager wants. If you don’t think thats what it takes for a club to change then again you are not being realistic and just effectively covering your ears and eyes.
    Based on the last 2 managers there is no chance that will happen, you will be here again in 16months asking for a change. then it starts again!
    UTD is a good example of this, went through managers then suddenly realised they had it wrong, in fact they hired a manager with a terrible record, yet they had troubling times, they stuck with it, they invested! they are 2nd behind city, and in the EL final.

    Whilst I don’t rate the overall quality of the squad, we do have some good points, defensively we are much more sound. We need LB cover, we need a RB. I am happy with the CB – and I even think losing Luiz is more bad than good. Its not just about playing, its about what that player can bring overall. Luiz by all accounts was a tremendous person around the changing room.

    We need a proper DM, I’d love for us to get Bassouma, absolute beast.

    We need CAM, personally I would like Buendia over Ode. Beundia scores more and runs at players more, this we have missed since Nasri and Santi. a player that can carry the ball and offer directness.

    I would sell Laca, I love the guy but I think we should invest that in Eduard or someone similar. Chambers, Guendouzi, AMN, Nelson, Eddie, they all need to go. Im not sure on Willock he has always let himself down when given a chance for us, and generally been crap. That said do we give him a chance again based on form with Newcastle, could the answer be to loan him for a full season and see how he does across a full season where he will be given more playing time. No offence but Newcastle are not exactly littered with talent in middle of park. Xhaka or even El Neny would be their best player if they had them.

    I wouldn’t go hung ho selling players, I’d keep Xhaka, Elneny, Cedric, they are more than adequate squad players, and are certainly good enough for 15-20 games across league and cup games.

    Anyway im out, probably my last post until the new season. Enjoy your summer and enjoy the Euros, Come on England.

    #1957538

    muffler_1
    Participant
    • :

    Andy Not arguing the whole post but ESR would not have been playing had not Willian got injured just before the Chelsea game. Would Arteta have started ESR if Willian was fit who knows but its my opinion that he would not. So If you look at the first part of the season to the second part there is a huge difference but it all started because an injury to the worst player on the pitch that Arteta insisted with despite not doing anything to warrant him being played in game after game.

    So by all means credit goes to Arteta for the second part but do remember how it came to happen.

    #1957601

    the bsm walk
    Participant
    • :

    Where do posters get this certain idea there’s an agenda? Why does there have to be an agenda?? What an idiotic idea to want someone to fail or you simply don’t like the man. On the contrary just because you were a staunch in man or out man, does not mean you can’t change your opinion.

    Likewise, if you criticise a player to death but he suddenly changes your opinion, you’re allowed to do that. That isn’t flip flopping, you’ve given it time to change your mind, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    I even hear TSO say he will be one of the best managers in the world, good for him! Let him be the best manager at the world somewhere else, you think I’d turn around or anyone would and say oh no oh no why did we let him go, look what he’s doing now? Some people are just silly on here honestly.

    #1957606

    Jeff
    Participant
    • :

    AndyC- you are writing pure, utter, illogical, nonsense. You will note that I did not say BS as you said to one of my so called negative posts late last year. Are you some happy clappy evangelist that does not tolerate anything said against a manager, despite overwhelming evidence? YOUR agenda is to support him for some bizarre reason when he’s done so much wrong. On player selection, Leno over Martinez, fighting for Willian’s deal; shambolic treatment of young players (Saliba and Martinelli), having hissy fits when some players make a mistake and ostracising them for weeks (Gabriel, Soares and Martinelli), whilst accommodating senior players who make constant errors or have nothing to contribute( Willian); playing the most mind-numbing football for over 25 years(safety-first slow, backwards, sideways then repeat twice)- you call that defensively sound!; “tactics”, the appalling way the team was set up in both legs against Villareal and not changed after experimenting in a must-win leg for God’s sake ( sackable offences anywhere else); praising Luiz ( as you do), for his influence “in the dressing room”- obviously not his influence as player on the pitch- sure let’s keep him on- what for as a half-time comedian for £5m a year?. No nous, no idea of his best team, no clue as to a formation, changing the line-up every game and not imbuing anyone with any confidence. There are loads of other examples. This is supposedly a “great coach”- where’s the evidence? Most players have gone backwards under his managership. You should take a look at other websites, the media in general etc. The vast majority are in despair that this novice is learning the job at our expense and you stick by him- quite ridiculous. I don’t care who the Board appoint next. It should be someone who has managed before, not an arrogant, refuse to- learn wannabee like Arteta. And you’d trust him to spend any money wisely this summer, based on his track record?!! Unbelievable, no doubt you supported Wenger when he should have left 10 years before he did?

    #1957637

    the bsm walk
    Participant
    • :

    I agree Jeff. The thing is some people think you’re not allowed to get things wrong. Of course you are, you’re allowed to make mistakes but show us you’re at least trying to rectify the situation, show us you’re making the right tactical adjustments, show us your style of football, show us your nous, show us logical and actually productive tweaks to your system etc I could go on.

    I stand by what I said, I’ve wanted Arteta in for so long but I’m all out of hope and out of patience now, I’ve seen enough of him to understand he’s just as stubborn as Wenger.

    When Charles Watt who had the temerity to ask him questions us fans wanted to ask – he shut him down and ever since then Arteta has been hostile towards Charles Watt.

    He kept getting asked about Martinelli and his last response was simply laughable. He said we can’t afford to play a whole starting 11 with 19 and 20 year olds and nobody else is doing that. What?!! One extra young player in the starting 11! As if the geriatric Willian is doing anything to warrant a place in the team and been rightly dropped after how long?

    #1957645
    steveosnakeeye
    steveosnakeeye
    Participant
    • :

    It’s not an agenda from me Andy and I don’t dislike Arteta I just don’t believe him to be good enough at present for my club

    The things he has been in control of are what I base this opinion on

    His buys his selections his tactics his changes his man management his results his teams record in things like red cards, goals cost as a direct result of playing out from the back
    Home record and so many other things

    Many of which others have said above
    I wouldn’t protest him or not support the team in a match but doesn’t mean I want him or think he is what we need or deserve

    If t he e krankies sold us tomorrow and a new trillionaire gave us a huge transfer pot I would still rather that was spent and used by a better more experienced manager who would stand more of a chance of getting us back to the top and challenging

    It’s hardly hindsight if we all call before a match when a teams announced we will lose and play bad and do

    Throwing the agenda argument around us easy and those with a different opinion could very much say the same to you and tso

    I wouldn’t and won’t because it’s not and agenda it’s 2 differing thoughts processes abs beliefs my 2 groups based on the same data

    #1957646
    The Oracle
    The Oracle
    Participant
    • :

    Agree with both Jeff and bsm walk. Arsenal have been in decline for 13-15years now. The rot set in when Wengers ego took over and he was given total autonomy. He spent hundreds of million on dross and then told them winning isn’t everything and they took it literally. The winning mentality we had under George Graham was lost. During Wengers early years new players, especially the foreigners were told in no uncertain terms what playing for Arsenal meant. You play until you drop, you never give up. Once those players moved on or retired they were replaced by the likes of Ozil, Mustafi, Xhaka et al. All they care about is the money. Wengers stubbornness and ego wouldn’t allow him to realise the damage he was causing so he blindly plodded on massaging his huge ego. Bsm makes a very good point, Arteta has an ego as well, like Wenger he is stubborn and doesn’t like criticism. Emery was never the man and neither his Arteta. We are actually getting worse and as I’ve said many times it’s not the amount of money we spend it’s who we spend it on, hundreds of millions thrown away on rubbish who coast along not bothered whether they win or lose. The poison in the squad was evident, Ozil, Mustafi, Kolasinac and more than likely Xhaka, Leno, Bellerin, Sokratis, Luiz, Elneny, Xhaka, Lacazette not good enough. Young players ignored, Saliba signed and then kicked out, Pepe signed and then dropped in favour of Willian, Gabriel & Partey signed done little. The coaching is obviously poor, man management poor, team selection poor, tactics bizarre and negative, quality of football worse than Terry Neil. Arteta is the manager and he is responsible for this mess, we are worse now than we were in the 1960’s. I have no faith in Arteta and Edu buying the right players and I expect next season to be as poor as this season. Forget the top 4 we have no chance with Arteta.

    #1957657

    the bsm walk
    Participant
    • :

    Yes oracle, recruitment is key. Not just throwing money all over the place. United have got it horribly wrong as precedent and as an example.

    So this Kroenke needs to spend yes spend but spend on the right players. If recruitment goes belly up then we’re left with the ozils, the mustafis the xhakas etc all of which were handsome transfer fees.

    #1957673
    the specialone
    the specialone
    Participant
    • :

    Andyc – Spot on,Just to reiterate on the point that some people think we need to get someone more experienced.Utter nonsense!This guy came in fixed a broken dressing room and won us an FA cup all this in his managerial debut season which was not even a full one.

    My problem is not that fans have a different opinion, my issue is that they ask for things without a reason.I mean,These fans who are now turning on Arteta.They turned on Wenger,they turned on emery as well.How did that turn out?Result wise are we better off?I think one of the biggest problems on here is everybody thinks they’re an expert.To say Arteta is not good enough?Well if he’s not good enough then why did pep hire him?Mind you pep hiring someone could be the biggest compliment.If he’s not good enough why is Barcelona in for him?You want to me to believe certain disgruntled fans over Professional experts?Utter nonsense.

    Now they’re trying to push out this manager too.The problem is thankfully there are not enough till now, but if the fans keep banging on the same drum then what the board does more often than not is to give the managers head on a silver platter just so that they have that one person to blame.

    In this case, it’s not only some manager.I think it’s someone who really really has a special knowledge of the game.We will not get anyone better than him, it’s very very unlikely and all the past few seasons has proven is changing the manager dosen do shite.

    #1957679
    the specialone
    the specialone
    Participant
    • :

    Muffler – The reason I give so much attention to detail to stats is because they’re a metric that genuinely measures the truth.I’m not saying they’re the tell all and in very few cases they even do deceive us but overall I think they’re very important.You and I might have very different interpretations of the game, but stats actually tell what’s gone on the pitch.

    You say you don’t care whether whether our expected goals(Xg) is higher.Well you should, because that literally states that we have done enough in the game to create better goalscoring oppurtunities than that off the opponents.In other words what that means is the manager has done his job to get our team to the final third and is certainly not culpable for the result.Some fans with an agenda will obviously think otherwise but that’s them.
    I also think you must not just look at the end result because in more ways than not they far from tell the whole story.

    For instance, imagine if we created 10 more chances and shots at goal per game than our opponents for every single game in the PL.Just a hypothetical.And say if we finished fifth in the table.

    All that will prove is that our conversion rate is terrible and that our players have not taken our chances and we need better quality.It has nothing to do with the manager.

    I think in more ways that is what has happened with Arsenal and that’s why I keep mentioned Xg.No I’m not saying Arsenal have created 10 more chances than our opponents in every game, no way far from it.But Many games especially against average teams our Xg has been much higher but our players especially the most reliable ones have simple failed to convert our chances.

    In conclusion,I’d rather see my team perform better rather than simply get the result.Because it’s near impossible that you can consistently give poor performances and win at the same time.

    Most of all Not enough people are mentioning how much we’ve been screwed over by the VAR.I question whether they are even genuine Arsenal fans.Because there are just diabolical decisions that have gone against us that would point to a conspiracy against us.
    I read an Article in ESPN that if VAR didn’t exist, we would’ve finished fourth ahead of Chelsea.

    The thing is that people don’t understand,VAR hasn’t ruled out our goals because they were blatantly incorrect decisions.But VAR has gone against us not giving us the benefit of doubt just about every single time.Even after the match all the tv experts said the officials got this wrong and VAR did nothing to correct it.
    The most blatant of all was still the Pepe “invisible” offside against Everton for the Ceballos penalty.Images clearly show he was onside, yes I’m talking about the lines they draw.The officials failed to give an explanation after the game.I think Arsenal must take serious action against the responsible authority.Because we quite literally would’ve been in the CL nexts season had it not been for VAR.

    #1957688

    the bsm walk
    Participant
    • :

    Lol. So what if Pep hired Arteta what does that exactly mean. He values his input. Did anyone say he’s a bad a complete novice in terms of football knowledge. You’re being insincere if you think that me or anyone else for that matter is insinuating that. Pep signed Alex Hleb and he was a complete disaster, does that mean Alex Hleb is a bad player? I don’t see your point at all, nobody is saying he doesn’t know football, he’s played at the highest level which none of us have. It doesn’t make us wrong and not allowed an opinion we are allowed to say what we see what is wrong with you?

    With that being said, you’re a staunch Xhaka defender but I’ve yet to see a single pundit praise him but only criticise him. That means you’re wrong on that count because a pundit ‘knows more about football than you’ so your opinion is invalid according to that logic.

    #1957701
    the specialone
    the specialone
    Participant
    • :

    BSM – You’re starting to sound like the forum idiot and you know who I’m talking about.Anyways I don’t want to keep exchanging insults we all know where it leads to so I’ll just stick to football.

    What kind of utter illogical points are you making here?Deary me.
    Signing a player and getting someone in as your no 2 are totally different things.Deary me how can you even compare the two?I didn’t really follow Hleb’s time,but from what I’ve ever read how you judge certain things and How I judge them are totally different things.

    You’re yet to see a single pundit praise Xhaka?Well I’m sure I can bring out some quotes from the archive that say he’s massively improved?But for me he hasn’t improved he was always the same people have only just started seeing what he brings to the table now.Anyways,a pundit is not a professional he’s just someone you hire to give an opinion on television mainly.
    Are you saying a pundit holds more credibility than a professional manager who is paid money to make these types of decisions?

    Wenger,emery and Arteta all thought he’s good enough for Arsenal.Yet you want me to believe a pundit over them.Stop talking nonsense mate.

    Honestly,My problem with you and a few others is that you’re way too arrogant.This holier than thou attitude – Know all attitude.It’s nowhere near as much as you know.Our knowledge including mine of the game dosen’t make up 10% of what managers like Arteta,wenger and Emery know.So please try and accept that.

    You still haven’t answered my question though – Fans including yourself pushed Wenger and emery out with the hope of showing progress and we’ve only gone in decline.Now youre trying to push Arteta out as well.What,with the hope that the club will make progress?Stop living in cuckoo land will ya.

    What is your solution exactly?keep Sacking managers until superman comes along and miraculously overachieves?Go on answer this question.You already got it wrong with Wenger and emery, now you want to get it wrong with Arteta too?

    #1957727

    muffler_1
    Participant
    • :

    Well i look at it a little more simple than you TSO but i do respect your thoughts.

    For me the game is about winning games nothing else. I want us to win simple as that. That why goals are more important to me than expected goals.

    I understand that stats can be used to look at it more in detail and that it helps to give a more in depth view. It would help Arteta in his work for the future not arguing against that.

    I dont have an agenda against him i kind of like him as a person and I wanted him to succeed.

    But it started with selling Martinez, everybody could see the difference in the security at the back with him in goal compared to Leno but not Arteta apparently.

    Then came Willian for a lot of games playing poorly game after game and he did nothing until he got injured and then he put in ESR and things changed for the better. I dont think ESR would have played much had Willian not been injured. That is bad management to not see that Willian could not do anything right for 20 games.

    Then the worst of them all came the EL semi and what he did there was just bad management no need for more details.

    Has he done good things as well of course but these 3 key decisions was instrumental in how the season unfolded.

    #1957738
    the specialone
    the specialone
    Participant
    • :

    Muffler – I respect your contribution but again I feel you’re just so mistaken where certain decisions are concerned.Listen the simple fact is we are here and Arteta is there.There are a lot and By that I mean a lot of factors that contribute to certain decisions that we don’t know about.Arteta might have the final say but let’s not ignore that there is a whole team that give their inputs which he obviously takes into consideration as far as team selection is concerned.

    Martinez?Listen We’ve had this discussion loads of time before.He has always been my number 1,Even last season ahead of Leno.I thought it was a foolish decision to sell him.I still think we underold him only at about 16m was it?He is worth more.He made us win a trophy, he got voted Aston Villa’s player of the season and In my opinion he’s been the best keeper in the league last season.
    But fans really do pretend to know more than they actually do- How do you know he wasn’t sold because this club needed funds.Martinez is literally the only player that another club made a bid for, considering we had an Ok keeper in Leno (still not good enough for me) It was the only way we could raise funds to buy Partey or garbriel.

    I’m more upset about the fact we had to sell to buy.You will never win a trophy like this.And out of such a large squad, when the only bid you receive is for this player then it speaks volumes on how average the squad really is and how we don’t know to deal in the transfer market.

    #1957739

    the bsm walk
    Participant
    • :

    😂😂😂 forum idiot. I told you, if you don’t like what I post gtfo this thread. Sounds like sour grapes because your opinion is in the minority here and I’m willing to bet overall. Get over it, you’re not some Einstein, all knowing, all seeing football expert. You have an opinion, hold yours.

    #1957742

    the bsm walk
    Participant
    • :

    A pundit isn’t a professional? Roy Keane, Jamie redknapp, Gramae Souness etc etc weren’t professionals? You that stupid or what? They’ve played AT the highest level all you can sit there and do is say we’re not qualified to have an opinion.

    So when I bring examples of people who should have opinions basing your logic on the fact we haven’t done anything professionally you dismiss it now saying they just have an opinion. You need help honestly goodbye

    #1957821
    the specialone
    the specialone
    Participant
    • :

    Ok BSM,that’s it you’re sounding dumber with every post.You’re stupid enough to believe a proffesional football player knows more about the game than a professional manger.That’s what you’re insinuating and telling me.None of those names you mention have been successful managers.When I said professionals I meant obviously those who are managing the team because they’re the ones making all the decisions,I didn’t feel the need to spell it out for you.But clearly you needed to know that.

    Anyways,no more insults.You’re know one to tell me to get off any thread,Shows your maturity level.I’m not going to argue with anymore,You can hold your opinion and then moan next year again at the next manager.

    #1957884

    the bsm walk
    Participant
    • :

    Go away.

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